The establishment and historic child sex abuse

[martyn20]

So? If it's other security services that are the paedos, we wouldn't need to cover that. Of course if those making the decisions on this are foreign services, then that would be different, but if that's the case, we're in a lot more trouble than we thought.

Indeed, a certain central European country's secret services are 'suggested' to use children in this way by supplying them to 'important' people and using the evidence to suggest they act in certain ways.

But aside from that it is our secret services job to 'protect' the government. Cyril Smith was vital in setting up the Lib-Lab pact 1977-78, that saved the Callaghan government from collapse. At that point MI5 are said to have removed police evidence of his crimes from police custody, because of his vital importance at that time they 'gave him a pass'!*

*Public domain evidence in 'Smile for the Camera: The Double Life of Cyril Smith' book

 

[Cian]

This would read so much better if alongside it there wasn't an ad asking me to contact "Thai Ladies"... and no doubt they are of a certain appropriate age. Clean this site up Bozza.

Ads are contextual to *your* browsing habits not the site.

 

[Flex Your Head]

The last thing we want is some loopy conspiracy theorists linking all of this to Zionism, the Illuminati, David Icke and other crap like that. Nothing will lose public credibitlity quicker than people reading or hearing something or someone, and thinking 'nutter'.

A lot of people, particularly younger people, seem already to be of the mindset that the whole idea of "our" politicians and members of the government at the time, famous people, celebrities etc, regularly meeting up to abuse and rape children is ludicrous. Lone *******s like Savile can be 'understood' (for want of a btter word), and Stuart Hall and Rolf Harris are viewed as foul old pervs, but people (perhaps unsurprisingly) find the whole Elm House set-up a touch far-fetched.

The public must not be made to feel alienated if this is all to be brought out.

 

[martyn20]

The last thing we want is some loopy conspiracy theorists linking all of this to Zionism, the Illuminati, David Icke and other crap like that. Nothing will lose public credibitlity quicker than people reading or hearing something or someone, and thinking 'nutter'.

A lot of people, particularly younger people, seem already to be of the mindset that the whole idea of "our" politicians and members of the government at the time, famous people, celebrities etc, regularly meeting up to abuse and rape children is ludicrous. Lone *******s like Savile can be 'understood' (for want of a btter word), and Stuart Hall and Rolf Harris are viewed as foul old pervs, but people (perhaps unsurprisingly) find the whole Elm House set-up a touch far-fetched.

The public must not be made to feel alienated if this is all to be brought out.

I totally understand your feelings but it was David Icke that was saying, what we now see reported in the Telegraph, 10 years ago about Saville and others. The fact is what they said so long ago is turning out to be true in every single case!
I am no fan of Mr Icke and his lizard people by the way but the stuff he and similar people have written about these cases is turning out to be correct when years ago we all laughed at it. This is happening now because of people like him and Pie and Mash Films

 

[Titanic]

I've done a lot of reading about this over the last few days. Some of the things being alleged if true are just mind-blowing. If they are true and were to be made public I genuinely think (and hope) there would be a massive change in this country but a change those in power won't allow without a fight.

Where have you been able to read these 'things' that are not public?

 

[hitony]

This would read so much better if alongside it there wasn't an ad asking me to contact "Thai Ladies"... and no doubt they are of a certain appropriate age. Clean this site up Bozza.

I would clean up your browsing history if I were you!

All the ads each individual member sees on NSC are relevant to what each individual searches for on their PC ...........do let us know which one you picked

 

[martyn20]

Where have you been able to read these 'things' that are not public?

If you google these stories there are plenty of links, which we cannot post here which discuss the cases, many are forums like this. Many people never see them as they are not reported in the mass media or on our News Channels. No being public really means most of the public never see them but they are there.

 

[hitony]

My post above does remind of a person on here (name escapes me) quite a long time back I think, who was bitterly complaining about the ads he was getting on NSC were all about porn sites!

 

[Goldstone1976]

The last thing we want is some loopy conspiracy theorists linking all of this to Zionism, the Illuminati, David Icke and other crap like that. Nothing will lose public credibitlity quicker than people reading or hearing something or someone, and thinking 'nutter'.

Quite so. In addition to "average" folk not being impressed by obvious conspiracy theories and being inclined to dismiss their thoughts as the irrelevant ramblings of a disturbed mind, it would also, tragically, but entirely predictably, also allow anybody in positions of authority who may be so inclined to use those ramblings as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from whatever may in reality be there.

"Come now. Yes, I know that [X] said that politician [Y] was/is involved in paedophilia, but then again [X] also said that [pick a wild conspiracy theory of your choice - my current choice is that German intelligence agents were reasonable for sinking the Titanic]. You're not really taking him seriously, are you?"

No - this topic is far too important to allow the conspiracy theorists to provide a perfect cover for any potential cover-up. A proper in-depth investigation is what is required. To be honest, I'd accept one which delivered only, say, 50% of the truth, because that 50% would be a material start. Look at the Savile thing - it all started with a few rumours and an ITV documentary. It all snowballed from there, and hasn't stopped rolling yet. While it would be great to think that a single inquiry could get to 100% in one go, we all know that life isn't like that. Let's get what we can now and then watch it snowball.

But - keep the conspiracy theorists out of the way - they will seriously do way more damage than good - all imo, like.

 

[Flex Your Head]

Quite so. In addition to "average" folk not being impressed by obvious conspiracy theories and being inclined to dismiss their thoughts as the irrelevant ramblings of a disturbed mind, it would also, tragically, but entirely predictably, also allow anybody in positions of authority who may be so inclined to use those ramblings as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from whatever may in reality be there.

"Come now. Yes, I know that [X] said that politician [Y] was/is involved in paedophilia, but then again [X] also said that [pick a wild conspiracy theory of your choice - my current choice is that German intelligence agents were reasonable for sinking the Titanic]. You're not really taking him seriously, are you?"

No - this topic is far too important to allow the conspiracy theorists to provide a perfect cover for any potential cover-up. A proper in-depth investigation is what is required. To be honest, I'd accept one which delivered only, say, 50% of the truth, because that 50% would be a material start. Look at the Savile thing - it all started with a few rumours and an ITV documentary. It all snowballed from there, and hasn't stopped rolling yet. While it would be great to think that a single inquiry could get to 100% in one go, we all know that life isn't like that. Let's get what we can now and then watch it snowball.

But - keep the conspiracy theorists out of the way - they will seriously do way more damage than good - all imo, like.

Absolutely this.

 

[Titanic]

If you google these stories there are plenty of links, which we cannot post here which discuss the cases, many are forums like this. Many people never see them as they are not reported in the mass media or on our News Channels. No being public really means most of the public never see them but they are there.

Are you seriously trying to classify something billions of people can Google search, find a link for and freely read as 'not public'? Really??

 

[martyn20]

Are you seriously trying to classify something billions of people can Google search, find a link for and freely read as 'not public'? Really??

How many people do you think had heard of the Elm Guest House before this weekend. You do realise there are articles going back to the birth of the internet and decades before talking about Jimmy Savilles abuses, were they 'public'?

 

[martyn20]

Quite so. In addition to "average" folk not being impressed by obvious conspiracy theories and being inclined to dismiss their thoughts as the irrelevant ramblings of a disturbed mind, it would also, tragically, but entirely predictably, also allow anybody in positions of authority who may be so inclined to use those ramblings as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from whatever may in reality be there.

"Come now. Yes, I know that [X] said that politician [Y] was/is involved in paedophilia, but then again [X] also said that [pick a wild conspiracy theory of your choice - my current choice is that German intelligence agents were reasonable for sinking the Titanic]. You're not really taking him seriously, are you?"

No - this topic is far too important to allow the conspiracy theorists to provide a perfect cover for any potential cover-up. A proper in-depth investigation is what is required. To be honest, I'd accept one which delivered only, say, 50% of the truth, because that 50% would be a material start. Look at the Savile thing - it all started with a few rumours and an ITV documentary. It all snowballed from there, and hasn't stopped rolling yet. While it would be great to think that a single inquiry could get to 100% in one go, we all know that life isn't like that. Let's get what we can now and then watch it snowball.

But - keep the conspiracy theorists out of the way - they will seriously do way more damage than good - all imo, like.

The only place you could read about Savilles abuses before 2012 was these conspiracy websites and that's why this could happen



Go to some of them and read the stuff posted 10 years ago about him but because it's a conspiracy website it can't of course be true!

 

[dingodan]

What I am finding hard to stomach is that if this was about financial malfeasance, or political corruption, it would be reported as an absolute scandal, and the press would not let up.

I find it difficult to fathom how anyone can think about anything else now that this has gone public. And I say again, where are the arrests?

On the other hand, I will say after a few days reading about and thinking on these things, I do actually feel quite unwell. More than once I have had to stop reading something and take a break and get some air.

I just hope people don't let this go, and from the reaction of people on this board, I do have hope that people won't have patience with this for long.

I wonder if the media are receiving a lot of calls about this, I hope so.

 

[SussexHoop]

Where have you been able to read these 'things' that are not public?

As Martyn20 says it's all out there and available to everyone ... Google, YouTube, pienmashfilms
If it's true...

 

[Goldstone1976]

The only place you could read about Savilles abuses before 2012 was these conspiracy websites and that's why this could happen

Go to some of them and read the stuff posted 10 years ago about him but because it's a conspiracy website it can't of course be true!

I think you're missing my point. My point is not that all conspiracy websites are BS, but rather that because most are BS it obfuscates the truth behind the few that are not.

I honestly believe the Savile stuff would have come out into the mainstream anyway - most people got their first serious knowledge of Savile from the ITV documentary, which I do not believe was prompted by conspiracy websites, but instead came about through one or two dogged mainstream investigative journalists.

There is a case that can be made, imo, that the conspiracy websites actually delayed the story hitting the mainstream. The investigative journalists would have had to got their editor's approval to pursue the story. That conversation could easily have gone:

Journalist: I want to investigate Savile.
Editor: You've been reading those conspiracy websites again, haven't you? No.

Conspiracy theorists often believe that what they are doing is bringing something important to the public gaze. Regrettably, I actually think it often has the opposite effect due to people dismissing their opinions due to the impossibility/unlikeliness of much of what they say.

 

[martyn20]

I think you're missing my point. My point is not that all conspiracy websites are BS, but rather that because most are BS it obfuscates the truth behind the few that are not.

I honestly believe the Savile stuff would have come out into the mainstream anyway - most people got their first serious knowledge of Savile from the ITV documentary, which I do not believe was prompted by conspiracy websites, but instead came about through one or two dogged mainstream investigative journalists.

There is a case that can be made, imo, that the conspiracy websites actually delayed the story hitting the mainstream. The investigative journalists would have had to got their editor's approval to pursue the story. That conversation could easily have gone:

Journalist: I want to investigate Savile.
Editor: You've been reading those conspiracy websites again, haven't you? No.

Conspiracy theorists often believe that what they are doing is bringing something important to the public gaze. Regrettably, I actually think it often has the opposite effect due to people dismissing their opinions due to the impossibility/unlikeliness of much of what they say.

So for the sake of the children abused at Elm Guest House it's better if we ask the 'conspiracy' websites to stop talking, posting and investigating and leave it all to the mainstream media. Is that the best way of making sure the true story is told?

 

[Goldstone1976]

So for the sake of the children abused at Elm Guest House it's better if we ask the 'conspiracy' websites to stop talking, posting and investigating and leave it all to the mainstream media. Is that the best way of making sure the true story is told?

I'm not sure, tbh. What I would say is that the vast majority of people have found out about the various shocking revelations through the auspices of the mainstream media and not via a conspiracy website. Without wishing to put words in your mouth, you might say that that only happened because the conspiracy websites exist. I wouldn't accept that premise. S'all.

 

[martyn20]

I'm not sure, tbh. What I would say is that the vast majority of people have found out about the various shocking revelations through the auspices of the mainstream media and not via a conspiracy website. Without wishing to put words in your mouth, you might say that that only happened because the conspiracy websites exist. I wouldn't accept that premise. S'all.

Sadly we are talking about events that happened 30, 40, 50 years ago and have been ignored by the mainstream media, some are still ignoring it. Without these conspiracy/fringe websites it would have all been forgotten and swept under the rug forever years ago.

 

[Acker79]

Sadly we are talking about events that happened 30, 40, 50 years ago and have been ignored by the mainstream media, some are still ignoring it. Without these conspiracy/fringe websites it would have all been forgotten and swept under the rug forever years ago.

How many of the current run of investigations/prosecutions etc are because someone has suddenly taken a conspiracy site seriously, and how many are because a/several victim(s) have stepped forward and been taken seriously by the authorities (encouraged by other people getting justice for their historical attacks)? Since none of the current prosecutions are a result of CT websites, if we didn't have these websites it would have had no effect.

No one is saying conspiracy theorists weren't saying it years ago, but that they weren't being taken seriously because they are conspiracy theorists, and that the reputation of CTs is such that it would make people less inclined to believe the alleged far reaching tendrils of this case, simply because it is being tied to CTs.