The Death Penalty - The Sun strikes again.

[Biscuit]

I wasnt attacking your view and yes I did offer my own opinion and am still doing so.

I just cant get over how some people seem to think their own 'civilsed view' is the basis for everyone else.

In your reply to my first post you didn't offer your opinion - read it again. You simply attacked mine. Which I'm fine with by the way, its an interesting debate, I think its healthy to discuss it! Although you'll probably not agree with that. I just can't get over how one persons reasonable argument can't be respected and appreciated as much as the next mans. Maybe its a result of the medium of the internet..

I've treated your comments with more time than they deserve, you can't have a debate unless both sides are willing to listen.

ciao

 

[ATFC Seagull]

It annoys me that people bring in the USA whenever there is a counter argument against this sort of thing. What about China or other countries with the death penalty does it work there?

As they execute the most people (in total and per capita) of any country in the world and have the world's largest prison population, I'm guessing it doesn't work that well, no.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

The problem is that the people of the so-called "heinous acts" that people are saying deserve the death penalty are often ill. I'm not one for this 'they are victims too' idea, but the purveyors of some of the crimes, particularly against children, I believe are not people who have made a conscious decision to do it against their better judgement, but people who suffer from horrendous psychological conditions. Its the only way they could possibly do such things.

Nope in my view they are EVIL. Plain and simple.

I went out with a criminal psychologist once who had to deal with some of the most heinous crimes imaginable.

She said that she could never defend these people - even tho she could have made much more money, these evil ****s play the "psychosis" card.

But they are, in the main rotten to the core. In all her cases she said she had just two (out of about 200) that actually, genuinely regretted and wanted to be rehabilitated and could class as "ill".

The rest were in her words evil bastards.

 

[Double Hard Bastard]

In the end, it comes down to whether or not you are comfortable with us killing people whilst taking the chance that you've got the wrong person.

Personally, I'm not.

I'm not for bringing back capital punishment but I feel murderer's & rapists should be locked away with no human rights!

 

[Billy the Fish]

But we aint talking about that shoplifter or council tax non-payer we are talking about criminals that commit the most heinous of crimes.

The Child Killer and Rapist, you really want him to acquire manufacturing skills to be released and so we might recoup some of the costs !!

What I mean is, as jevs said for the worst crimes like murder, rape and peadophilia then they should be part of a chain gang doing hard work for the rest of their lives.
Only give skills to those who are going to be released, off topic a bit I know.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Nope in my view they are EVIL. Plain and simple.

I went out with a criminal psychologist once who had to deal with some of the most heinous crimes imaginable.

She said that she could never defend these people - even tho she could have made much more money, these evil ****s play the "psychosis" card.

But they are, in the main rotten to the core. In all her cases she said she had just two (out of about 200) that actually, genuinely regretted and wanted to be rehabilitated and could class as "ill".

The rest were in her words evil bastards.

But surely those that don't regret it are just proving even more so how they are clearly not right in the head?

There's a certain degree of sanity to someone who regrets an action and wants to be rehabilitated.

 

[Biscuit]

The serious answer is that if life meant life then there is no need for the clamour for the rope. Let them die in prison. While thats not the case I say bring it back.

Interesting. But what if say, we got it wrong, and an innocent man died. If he had been imprisioned untill bigger prisons were built he may have had and won an appeal. Once someones dead thats it. It's a hellofa risk.

 

[BigGully]

The problem is that the people of the so-called "heinous acts" that people are saying deserve the death penalty are often ill. I'm not one for this 'they are victims too' idea, but the purveyors of some of the crimes, particularly against children, I believe are not people who have made a conscious decision to do it against their better judgement, but people who suffer from horrendous psychological conditions. Its the only way they could possibly do such things.

I am sure you might be able to sight an argument to defend criminals that do NOT commit heinous crimes too.

So there we have it averyone is innocent !!!

In my mind I can only assume that any person that rapes, tortures and murders a child must have psychological problems, but the crime is so abhorrent that I do not feel the inclination to support, help and try to cure or prevent their condition.

I would demand that those resources go to a Cancer cure thank you very much and that criminal goes to the Gallows.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

As they execute the most people (in total and per capita) of any country in the world and have the world's largest prison population, I'm guessing it doesn't work that well, no.

But what about other countries with it like Japan (for multiple murders), the UAE, SOUTH Korea?

Does it work for them?

 

[clippedgull]

I am sure you might be able to sight an argument to defend criminals that do NOT commit heinous crimes too.

So there we have it averyone is innocent !!!

In my mind I can only assume that any person that rapes, tortures and murders a child must have psychological problems, but the crime is so abhorrent that I do not feel the inclination to support, help and try to cure or prevent their condition.

I would demand that those resources go to a Cancer cure thank you very much and that criminal goes to the Gallows.

In that case, Stefan Kisko would have been executed rather than spend years of his life in prison before being cleared of raping and murdering a child. Shame the poor man died a year after release.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

But surely those that don't regret it are just proving even more so how they are clearly not right in the head?

Yep it shows that they CANNOT nor WANT to be treated.

Therefore life imprisonment or death it is.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

I am sure you might be able to sight an argument to defend criminals that do NOT commit heinous crimes too.

So there we have it averyone is innocent !!!

In my mind I can only assume that any person that rapes, tortures and murders a child must have psychological problems, but the crime is so abhorrent that I do not feel the inclination to support, help and try to cure or prevent their condition.

I would demand that those resources go to a Cancer cure thank you very much and that criminal goes to the Gallows.

Firstly I'd say that if you could "prevent their condition" then you could in turn prevent further crimes from those with similar conditions (of which there are usually warning signs), so I think you're being a little overly dismissive there.

Secondly, we are coming from the same basis that there is quite obviously something wrong with these people. But the crime is the PRODUCT of the condition, and whilst it can't be detatched from the responsibility of the individual person, I don't think it follows to ignore their condition BECAUSE of the crime. I'm not saying these people should avoid punishment and be rehabilitated, but I don't think its right for society to kill someone who is clearly not mentally sound.

 

[Dandyman]

Wonder if they'll call for the noose for Tony Martin?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Yep it shows that they CANNOT nor WANT to be treated.

Therefore life imprisonment or death it is.

Life imprisonment, or being locked-up for life in a secure hospital, yes, absolutely agree. Death, no.

 

[BigGully]

In that case, Stefan Kisko would have been executed rather than spend years of his life in prison before being cleared of raping and murdering a child. Shame the poor man died a year after release.

My very first post said:

The critical thing is ensuring that the decision of guilt is correct.

But now what is your view with a Child Rapist/Muderer that is 100% guilty, that is my debate.

 

[clippedgull]

Firstly I'd say that if you could "prevent their condition" then you could in turn prevent further crimes from those with similar conditions (of which there are usually warning signs), so I think you're being a little overly dismissive there.

Secondly, we are coming from the same basis that there is quite obviously something wrong with these people. But the crime is the PRODUCT of the condition, and whilst it can't be detatched from the responsibility of the individual person, I don't think it follows to ignore their condition BECAUSE of the crime. I'm not saying these people should avoid punishment and be rehabilitated, but I don't think its right for society to kill someone who is clearly not mentally sound.

Very well reasoned post.

Also let's not forget that most acts of serious child abuse both physical and sexual are made by members of the victims family and if the Death Penalty was ever re-introduced then victims will likely not come forward as they do now, knowing that daddy or daddys brother will be killed rather than just be punished by a few years in jail.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

But what about other countries with it like Japan (for multiple murders), the UAE, SOUTH Korea?

Does it work for them?

I would argue not particularly. I would say that, certainly with the countries you have mentioned, the attitude of the community and social upbringing has a large impact.

Whether the death penalty is effective or not as a deterrent is not a measurable statistic. Thats because you can't locate and survey would-be criminals about their reasons for not committing crimes.

However, the fact that it is deemed to be so IN-effective in many countries (admittedly again not strictly measurable) suggests that generally-speaking its not a very effective factor.

 

[BigGully]

Firstly I'd say that if you could "prevent their condition" then you could in turn prevent further crimes from those with similar conditions (of which there are usually warning signs), so I think you're being a little overly dismissive there.

Secondly, we are coming from the same basis that there is quite obviously something wrong with these people. But the crime is the PRODUCT of the condition, and whilst it can't be detatched from the responsibility of the individual person, I don't think it follows to ignore their condition BECAUSE of the crime. I'm not saying these people should avoid punishment and be rehabilitated, but I don't think its right for society to kill someone who is clearly not mentally sound.

We are all a product of our own experiences and our own psychology.

I assume Ian Huntley is psychologically flawed, however I do not wish this to somehow legitimise his actions or defend his guilt.

I think the crime so abhorrent that he deserves no resources, no support or care from me, you or the state.

I am at ease allowing him to be condemned and be killed.

 

[NMH]

The problem is that the people of the so-called "heinous acts" that people are saying deserve the death penalty are often ill. I'm not one for this 'they are victims too' idea, but the purveyors of some of the crimes, particularly against children, I believe are not people who have made a conscious decision to do it against their better judgement, but people who suffer from horrendous psychological conditions. Its the only way they could possibly do such things.

Hmm, yes..... but at what point does a persons' psychological condition become a totally different un-relation to WHO THEY REALLY ARE?
A person commits a crime and then says it was against their better judgement....does that make them poor misguided victims of some demon? Or, since they are only in possession of one brain at a time, is it a decision they made knowing that it was heinous?

Yes I understand there are schitzophrenic people out there who do things they don't always have self-control over, but the prison system has treatment available and society has progressed to deal with the human nature that can be encountered.

If we are to think in a forward manner about crimes, we should be looking at prevention through psychological treatment as well as administrations after the crime.
For The Sun to want to go backwards on crime and punishment, just confirms for me that they are just a backward newspaper.

 

[clippedgull]

My very first post said:

The critical thing is ensuring that the decision of guilt is correct.

But now what is your view with a Child Rapist/Muderer that is 100% guilty, that is my debate.

I believe you can only prove 100% with the 'killers' admission.

I am against the Death Penalty in all cases.