The Daily Mail

[cunning fergus]

Yeah,so much safer to sign up to fight in 1943, than stay in a dangerous University, imagine the paper cuts he could have got. Obviously, hardly anyone died after the Yanks got involved, just wish someone had told my great uncle, who died in 45 when the Nazis were only using marshmallows as ammunition.

Sorry about your uncle, was he a professional soldier or conscripted at 18?

I had both kinds in my immediate family, amazingly they all survived their war service (my uncle Dan) had a real run of luck and managed to make it through having been at Dunkirk, the desert, Italy and then D day.........lovely man.

Sadly a more distant relative survived the Dieppe raid as a commando apparently but then died in a German reprisal bombing raid in Hastings afterwards........hard times indeed if you were at the pointy end.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Now come on, stop messing about.

If someone loves the British nation so patriotically that they would want to subvert all of its historical institutions and establishment to replace it with a de facto communist state, then surely the likes of Burgess and Philby were actually patriots and not traitors? That is surely the logic you are driving at........no?

Marx stated in the Communist Manifesto that the working man has no nation, the only "patriotic" concept Marx had was for the working classes........i.e working classes of the world unite. Miliband to be fair must have had that sense of patriotism given his writings about the British working class during the war and after...........but that would have meant he HATED the British ruling classes and bourgeoise in particular. I mean that is what committed Marxists do right?

Patriotism in the context of a love of one's country cannot be reconciled with the struggle of the international working class. So I am not muddled, I may be no Ralph Miliband but I know that much about Marxism.

Well, while the ultimate goal was a stateless communism, it is clear from the writing of Marx, Engels and especially Lenin that, rather wisely I think, they did not regard this as something that could be achieved in one fell swoop.

Because of this, what I find striking is the extent to which, in their speeches and writing, they rally behind the needs of what they saw as oppressed nations. There appears to be a consensus between all three that revolution would happen on a piecemeal basis i.e. country by country, and that there was a place for supporting national self-determination to make this happen.

So, for example, Engels was a strong supporter of Polish independence. He said: ' For we German democrats have a special interest in the liberation of Poland.' Similarly, Marx saw Irish independence as something that would contribute to the English working class developing class consciousness as they no longer had a stake in the subjugation of the Irish working class.

In other words, patriotism in the context of a love of one's country can be reconciled with the struggle of the international working class. If any doubts remain, I refer you to the life story of Ho Chi Minh.

 

[lawros left foot]

Sorry about your uncle, was he a professional soldier or conscripted at 18?

I had both kinds in my immediate family, amazingly they all survived their war service (my uncle Dan) had a real run of luck and managed to make it through having been at Dunkirk, the desert, Italy and then D day.........lovely man.

Sadly a more distant relative survived the Dieppe raid as a commando apparently but then died in a German reprisal bombing raid in Hastings afterwards........hard times indeed if you were at the pointy end.

Conscripted into the navy at 18 in 1943, was torpedoed in the Barents sea, on HMS Bluebell, Febuary 1945

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Yes but no-one was forcing you! You even read like a Mail headline!

ENTIRE GENERATION FORCED TO JOIN UNIONS OR STARVE

Was you working during that era...you're right...nobody forced you to work..it was either that or the dole...I chose to work..

 

[Seagull on the wing]

At the risk of derailing this thread, the terms of reference for the enquiries were so narrow that a lot of the dirty tricks behind the decision to go to war was never fully explored. Coupled with the fact that I and many others simply don't believe a word of what he has said. And there's no doubt at all that his decision to attack the BBC and Gilligan using Kelly as a pawn was the single biggest factor in Kelly's death.

Putting that to one side, his particular brand of dirty tricks is the reason that the likes of Whelan and McBride were allowed to operate and some of his smears, for instance on Michael Howard, were equally as bad. Incidentally, Labour posters designed and approved by Campbell demonising Michael Howard during the 2005 elections were withdrawn after accusations of anti-semitism and racism.

He may be right on the facts of what the Daily Mail have done but as I've said, he's got absolutely no right to start moralising about it. I wouldn't blow smoke up his arse even if he was shitting wasps.

Buzzer...you have a lovely way with words...(Re last sentence) even if you are right...

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Same paper that writes articles like this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...LING-Return-Arctic-ice-cap-grows-29-year.html

What is the point you're trying to make? I wonder because nowhere on this thread has global warming been mentioned...the same story was reported in the Mirror,the Guardian and Telegraph...oh! I see,because it's in the Mail it's an evil put down of the working class..

 

[El Presidente]

I think the consensus is Alastair Campbell is a scheming manipulative bully and the Daily Mail is a hypocritical rag.

 

[cunning fergus]

Well, while the ultimate goal was a stateless communism, it is clear from the writing of Marx, Engels and especially Lenin that, rather wisely I think, they did not regard this as something that could be achieved in one fell swoop.

Because of this, what I find striking is the extent to which, in their speeches and writing, they rally behind the needs of what they saw as oppressed nations. There appears to be a consensus between all three that revolution would happen on a piecemeal basis i.e. country by country, and that there was a place for supporting national self-determination to make this happen.

So, for example, Engels was a strong supporter of Polish independence. He said: ' For we German democrats have a special interest in the liberation of Poland.' Similarly, Marx saw Irish independence as something that would contribute to the English working class developing class consciousness as they no longer had a stake in the subjugation of the Irish working class.

In other words, patriotism in the context of a love of one's country can be reconciled with the struggle of the international working class. If any doubts remain, I refer you to the life story of Ho Chi Minh.

Hold the bus, the ultimate aim of Marxism as you state yourself is stateless communism, ergo the nation state would merely be a temporary position following the proletariat gaining control from the establishment and the bourgeoise.

Patriotism as a concept was held in complete disdain by Marx and Engels; and it was considered an ideology of the bourgeoise and the establishment used to distract the working classes from their true struggle. They may have sought to cynically leverage patriotism as a means of fermenting revolution as part of the broader objective to overthrow governments however beyond this dimension there is no substance that patriotism can neatly sit alongside Marxism whatsoever...........as I suspect you well know.

As for HCM he was first and foremost resisting colonial and imperial oppression by the French and subsequently the US. To be honest I don't know enough about his personal motives, and whilst he may genuinely have loved his country, he certainly didn't love all his countrymen. He was responsible for a deadly regime during and after it's struggle, and that was not driven by his patriotism (as it wasn't by Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin for that matter...............no doubt apologists for them would disagree).

 

[cunning fergus]

Conscripted into the navy at 18 in 1943, was torpedoed in the Barents sea, on HMS Bluebell, Febuary 1945

Had an uncle in RN and he was 18 at Narvik then progressed onto Arctic Convoys, his widow (My aunt) is still alive and she used to attend a regular reunion of survivors etc. She recently got a DVD from the organisation about a reunion hosted by the Russians with all the history and memories called The Worst Journey In The World. Have to say, having watched it I felt that it could have been better, but it's definitely worth a watch given your connection........not sure if you can get it on Amazon.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-video-cheering-1818888
To those of you slating the Mail regarding the 'slur' on Ralph Milliband who is now passed away would like to justify this...or is it just the 'Right' who are evil...

 

[drew]

That's your choice...but the left celebrated the death of Maggie....was that a better report...maybe for the lefties...the Mail was not celebrating the death of Ralph Milliband...just saying he was a marxist....which Ed himself agreed was true
I think you'll find rhat the Mirror article is not about what bread the PM eats...more about the price of bread...;like everybody knows about the price of every article of food which fluctuates from day to day...

They didn't just say he was a marxist though did they? They described him as evil.

The same as the obsession of the left having the idea that everyone on the right live in mansions and are rich.The left idea of everyone being equal is an impossible dream...every country has rulers...you cannot tell me that the presidents of communist coutries live the same as peasants....there is an even wider difference in those countries
Everybody...left or right gets an opportunity here to improve their lot in life... (unless your a benefit cheat who is happy to leech on the working class)it's just envy that some people have more than you....I do not hear Labour ranting that Tony Blair has 7 properties worth millions and earns £200,000 just for giving a speech...left and right politicians have far more than I have...just be thankful you were not born in China/North Korea in the 40s...

Does everyone have an equal opportunity to improve their lot or do some of the so called 'elite' have a massive head start and in some cases, rise above their capabilities?

Well as you ask....I was bought up in the promised land of Labour...to get a job I HAD to join a Union...I had to work to Union rules of not speeding up the job so they are in work last longer....when Electricians picked up a screwdriver belonging to a Chippie and all hell broke loose,threatening to stop work on the ship...where there was a puddle of water from a leaky pipe and the Unions called a strike because they complained of wet conditions...yes there was craftsmen and hard workers but unless you worked to Union rules you were soon blacklisted. These sort of practises pushed my political thinking to the right...not everything is perfect by them either...to me,they are the lesser of the evils.
Yes,I live in a small town and I read the Daily Mail and lefties do not like the Mail because it shows the left up for their hypocrisy and envy of anyone who is better off than them.
PS.You seem to know about my private life...BUT just in case...yes I have been known to have an orgasm or two...

You were not forced to get a job involving unions. You could have done what one of the Mails heroes would have done and got on your bike!!!

Oh,please my wise friend...do enlighten me....having been forced to work with them for years...no union card,no job...yes,they told the bosses who they could or could not hire...if non union then they called a strike...democracy in action...the only people who were guarenteed wages during the strike were union bosses.

Perhaps you should study history a little more. Check to see how many of our current standard employee rights were freely given away by the establishment and how many had to be fought for by unions and/or staff collectives. Sick pay, paid holidays, reasonable working hours, the right not to be sacked for no reason etc etc. Do you think you have the vote because the establishment felt it would be in the countries interests to allow it.

You were if you wanted a job with unions involved and in my line of work at that time it was being part of a Union or no job

Based on your comment, why did you want a job with unions involved then? Change your line of work. Afterall, CDM is all about training programmes!

 

[Flex Your Head]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/margaret-thatcher-dead-video-cheering-1818888
To those of you slating the Mail regarding the 'slur' on Ralph Milliband who is now passed away would like to justify this...or is it just the 'Right' who are evil...

You've posted a link to a news story; not sure of the relevance.

 

[clapham_gull]

I'm not going to defend the Mail here, but like most successful newspapers it obviously taps into something good or bad that the public lap up.

But they've definitely dropped a bollock here. It's a story the Sun would have run in the 80s.

I'd imagine internally there is much gnashing of teeth.

On the subject of Marxist theorists, well I personally separate ideas like that from horrible realities like the Soviet Union. To put it another way I wouldn't ban the bible or the Koran, even though many have died in the name of religion.

If all Marxists are "evil" then by definition so are those who believe in God.

I also may not believe in either, but I wouldn't go round attacking those whose dead father believed in one or the other, printing a picture of his grave to make the point.

They've lost the plot and know it.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

They didn't just say he was a marxist though did they? They described him as evil.
See my last link to the Daily mirror.



Does everyone have an equal opportunity to improve their lot or do some of the so called 'elite' have a massive head start and in some cases, rise above their capabilities?



You were not forced to get a job involving unions. You could have done what one of the Mails heroes would have done and got on your bike!!!
You are talking silly now,I went all over the country putting in conveyors in car factories,sweet manufacturers,erecting telegraph poles,any job anywhere as long as I could earn a living and worked for many firms...went on the oil rigs
(Where thankfully at the time there was no union involvement) I've installed heavy fire doors in many military bases.



Perhaps you should study history a little more. Check to see how many of our current standard employee rights were freely given away by the establishment and how many had to be fought for by unions and/or staff collectives. Sick pay, paid holidays, reasonable working hours, the right not to be sacked for no reason etc etc. Do you think you have the vote because the establishment felt it would be in the countries interests to allow it.
History,well I am a military historian..Perhaps you should take your blinkers off,was on a site (Hoo power station) where 35 good working men were installing a hot sand boiler...the company needed more men...who came down..the Bettshangers miners on strike..within a week they had strikes and the site shut down..yes they did do well with the sick pay etc but they caused great disruption if it wasn't going how THEY wanted it to go.



Based on your comment, why did you want a job with unions involved then? Change your line of work. Afterall, CDM is all about training programmes!

I really don't know how old you are or what work experience you have but at my time there was not many jobs without union involvement..I worked for the Argus...print unions...welding and fitting...T&GU...I've been a manual worker all my life...except RN for 12 years Radar operator/diver...I've probably done more courses than you will ever..even learnt carpet fitting and to earn a crust went gravedigging,I had a disabled wife and two disabled children to care for...so please..do not lecture me on work.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

You've posted a link to a news story; not sure of the relevance.

If you cannot see that Daily Mail is being slated for posting about Ralph Milliband who is dead...and there is uproar over it... and the Daily Mirror post about Maggie and the vile diatribe pouring out of the left...some who where not even born then then please look again...pot-kettle-black.

 

[W.C.]

If you cannot see that Daily Mail is being slated for posting about Ralph Milliband who is dead...and there is uproar over it... and the Daily Mirror post about Maggie and the vile diatribe pouring out of the left...some who where not even born then then please look again...pot-kettle-black.

That Mirror article is reporting on what people did when Thatcher died.

The Mail published what they themselves believe about Milliband Sr.

Depending on your point of view, the 'vile diatribe' is being reported on in the Mirror. The Mail piece itself is the 'vile diatribe'.

 

[drew]

I really don't know how old you are or what work experience you have but at my time there was not many jobs without union involvement..I worked for the Argus...print unions...welding and fitting...T&GU...I've been a manual worker all my life...except RN for 12 years Radar operator/diver...I've probably done more courses than you will ever..even learnt carpet fitting and to earn a crust went gravedigging,I had a disabled wife and two disabled children to care for...so please..do not lecture me on work.

51 yesterday in fact. My sympathies with regard to your wife and children but you still chose to work in those fields. I voluntarily joined a union because of the protection it offered against an employer. I worked in the insurance industry and the reason I joined was because back in the 90s, my employer arbitrarily reduced everyones wages by 5% despite being a very profitable company. I successfully fought that despite bullying tactics and threats from the management. After that I made sure I would have access to proper legal support. I don't disagree that in the 70s the Unions were too powerful and selfish in that they didn't work for the good of the whole but just for their individual parts. However, without them there would be far too much power in the hands of the employer. Just to remind you that it wasn't that long ago that the Tories were seeking to introduce laws allowing employers to get rid of staff for no reason. It was only stopped by the Libdems. How would you have felt if everytime you got yourself a job and were able to support your family the employer got rid of you just because they didn't like the team you supported! As for Labour, take them out of the equation and do you think there would ever have been an NHS and where would that leave you with respect to your family.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

That Mirror article is reporting on what people did when Thatcher died.

The Mail published what they themselves believe about Milliband Sr.

Depending on your point of view, the 'vile diatribe' is being reported on in the Mirror. The Mail piece itself is the 'vile diatribe'.

Oh! I get it now,The left wing paper is reporting the lefts view of the cheering masses,that's ok then.
The Mail is reporting that Ralph Milliband was a marxist and hated what Britain stood for...wait! it's a right wing paper,tut tut! naughty right wing paper...did you see the right wing people come out on the streets and have parties,change signs at cinemas,burn effigies when Ralph died...I think not.
Double standards by people who rejoice at the death Maggie then take humbrage on a report that Ralph was a marxist and hated Britains role in the world.

 

[The Large One]

Oh! I get it now,The left wing paper is reporting the lefts view of the cheering masses,that's ok then.
The Mail is reporting that Ralph Milliband was a marxist and hated what Britain stood for...wait! it's a right wing paper,tut tut! naughty right wing paper...did you see the right wing people come out on the streets and have parties,change signs at cinemas,burn effigies when Ralph died...I think not.
Double standards by people who rejoice at the death Maggie then take humbrage on a report that Ralph was a marxist and hated Britains role in the world.

No, you're not getting it. You're missing it by a mile.

In the Mirror piece, the paper isn't smearing Maggie's memory, their story is about they're talking about other people smearing Maggie's memory - they're reporting a news story. What is the Mirror doing wrong in reporting the news?

In this instance, The Mail is reporting - according to the Miliband family - a pack of lies, smearing Miliband Snr's memory.

To compare those two has nothing to do with 'left' and 'right'. If you're going to compare them, compare them on their truthfulness and their relevance to the facts.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

51 yesterday in fact. My sympathies with regard to your wife and children but you still chose to work in those fields. I voluntarily joined a union because of the protection it offered against an employer. I worked in the insurance industry and the reason I joined was because back in the 90s, my employer arbitrarily reduced everyones wages by 5% despite being a very profitable company. I successfully fought that despite bullying tactics and threats from the management. After that I made sure I would have access to proper legal support. I don't disagree that in the 70s the Unions were too powerful and selfish in that they didn't work for the good of the whole but just for their individual parts. However, without them there would be far too much power in the hands of the employer. Just to remind you that it wasn't that long ago that the Tories were seeking to introduce laws allowing employers to get rid of staff for no reason. It was only stopped by the Libdems. How would you have felt if everytime you got yourself a job and were able to support your family the employer got rid of you just because they didn't like the team you supported! As for Labour, take them out of the equation and do you think there would ever have been an NHS and where would that leave you with respect to your family.

In answer to your post I did work in those fields because I was skilled at that trade...I couldn't work behind a desk,although if there was nothing else I would've given it a go.
Not denying that Nye Bevan bought in the NHS and me and my family have been well supported by them...me from a transplant.
Take you're point about Tories seeking rules of employment to allow bosses to sack people for no reason,but if you did'nt work in the 70s then you had no idea how powerful the unions were...it was unions putting men out of work by denying jobs to men who did'nt have a union card...it was not the bosses. In my case I had to join the union if I wanted to work to support my family...if you read my post about Hoo power station 35 good working men were put out of work because they didn't have a union card...it wasn't the bosses but the unions
who were crippling industrial output.
There have been good and bad policies by BOTH parties but if Union power wasn't stopped this country would still have it's image of the 'Sick man of Europe'.
You have your view about Unions, which you perfectly entitled to. I have my views of Unions because of my experience with them and their practices,I was bought in a family who believed in Labour for the working man,really, ask Tony Blair if he gives a toss about the working man whilst he is flying around the world and flitting between his 7 properties. I doubt he'd give a thought to people like you and I unless he could make a few quid from it.