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The case AGAINST bringing back terracing



Guy Fawkes

The voice of treason
Sep 29, 2007
8,280
Sorry, but someone educate me as to what exactly is 'safe terracing'. Presumably it allows for a lower density that the terracing that we had at the Goldstone and that if it covers a large area then it will be segmented and ticketed to prevent crushing. I not convinced one way or another but those that talk of being able to walk around a ground and stand where ever you want are really living in the real world. You can do that at non league grounds because they are small turnouts.

From an article from The Observer, Sunday August 12, 2007

In 1993, the German Football Association (the DFB) published a report into whether stadiums there should have their terraces removed. The answer was an emphatic no, on several grounds.

The notion that standing encouraged hooliganism was rejected, with blame placed squarely on the individuals. 'The majority of these spectators will not behave any differently in an all-seat stadium.' Abolishing standing would raise prices, but 'football, being a people's sport, should not banish the socially disadvantaged from its stadia, and it should not place its social function in doubt'.

Just as important, 'young fans on the terraces embody the vibrant world of football. It is here where the atmosphere that attracts millions of people all over the world to our sport is created.'

The DFB also recognised, unlike the British authorities, that simply installing seats did not guarantee that fans would use them. 'We are now witnessing more and more cases of spectators ignoring seats... and simply standing on them. This is a very dangerous practice.'

As a result, every ground in Germany has terracing, with 24,000 standing each weekend in a single stand at Borussia Dortmund's ground. Though it is not easy to tell from pictures of the vibrant Nord tribune (stand), the fans are divided into small pens that hold about 2,000, each with its own controlled entrance. Fans are admitted only to the pens for which they have tickets - and those tickets are far more affordable than in England. A standing ticket at Dortmund costs as little as €10 (£7), season ticket €148.
For Uefa club matches and competitive internationals, German stadiums are reconfigured. In Dortmund's case, this involves (in the upper tier) releasing seats built into the crash barriers and (in the lower tier) bolting in removable banks of seats. Thus capacities are reduced, as England fans found out at the 2006 World Cup. But this is simply because Uefa and Fifa regulations mirror those in England, not because of safety issues. Volker Fuerderer, safety officer at Schalke's Veltins Arena, where England went out of the World Cup, told the Football Supporters Federation (FSF): 'In nearly six years of the existence of the Veltins Arena I would go as far as to say that there is not a single incident or injury that could be explained by the existence of standing.'

The Football Licensing Authority (FLA), the body who implement government policy on standing, reject the German experience, however. As long as Fifa and Uefa demand that internationals and Champions League games are played at all-seat venues, terraces would have to be convertible. In reaction to the FSF report, John de Quidt, chief executive of the FLA, cited a trip to Hamburg's AOL Arena, where the terraces are converted via a hi-tech system that involves the rotation of the terrace steps through 180 degrees. De Quidt argued: 'There is no way that could work in England. [The Hamburg stand] was built on a huge site and on solid ground with no concourses underneath.'

But this visit was to a single ground and took place six years ago; Dortmund's ground is reconfigured in a completely different way. The depth of De Quidt's opposition to standing areas is apparent from a 2002 interview, when he said 'there's more chance of Martians landing' than of the reintroduction of terraces. Given the obvious prejudice this comment reveals, it is plain De Quidt is not a neutral in this debate.

The arguments against safe standing are weak. Neither the government nor anybody else has demonstrated the imposition of all-seat stadiums to be the best or the only way of ensuring an acceptable level of safety at a football ground. The only figures cited by the FLA are that the number of injuries in grounds that are all-seat is lower than in those that retain a standing area.

But those who wish to establish a causal link between standing areas and accidents/injuries need detailed information on the nature, cause and exact location of those accidents and injuries. They then need to analyse this information in detail, taking into account the wide range of other factors that might act as intervening variables. The FLA have done no such analysis and are in no position to justify the assertion that small, properly designed safe standing areas are inherently less safe than seated areas.

The last sports minister, Richard Caborn, claimed that all-seat stadiums led to a rise in attendances and widened the appeal of football to 'many more groups in society who were previously reluctant to attend matches', including women. He also said that any return to standing areas would cost clubs a fortune because they would need to make expensive adjustments to their grounds.

We strongly dispute the accuracy of some of those assertions. Indeed, the reverse of what Caborn says about social inclusiveness is true, as poorer fans are priced out of the grounds. And, yes, it would cost clubs money to adapt their stadiums, but that would be their choice if they were allowed to reintroduce standing areas.

The FLA have stated: 'Premiership and Football League grounds are safer, more comfortable and more civilised than they were 10 or 12 years ago.' Only one of these concepts, safety, is an appropriate subject for government regulation. And a significant proportion of spectators say the comfort and civility of their experience has been reduced by the abolition of terraces.

Some are seated next to or near others whose size, language or demeanour they may not like. Some seating areas are decidedly uncomfortable, either because of their cramped seats (Chelsea's West Stand) or because they are open to bad weather (Portsmouth's away end).

Read the full article at Observer Sport examines the case for a return to the terrace at top-flight stadiums | Football | The Observer
 




Yes but so were a lot of other measures that have improved ground safety.

The new "SAFE" terracing is a million times better than the old terraces


and makes the stadium take up miles more room to get it installed and operatational than simply putting seats in

The FLA's chief executive John de Quidt, however, said the German example was not "suitable" for English football.

He told BBC Sport he had been to Hamburg's AOL Arena to look at their solution - terrace steps that rotate through 180 degrees to enable both standing and seating options.

"There is no way that could work in England. (The Hamburg stand) was built on a huge site and on solid ground with no concourses underneath," said de Quidt.

"That kind of structure would not have fitted in any existing ground in England. It requires too much land and is too expensive.

"The German approach has to be seen in the context of giving cheap access to football matches. But English fans have paid an extra price for a high quality product. It is funny how we always hear about Germany. What about France or Italy?"

Pilz, however, disagreed with de Quidt's claim that the German model was necessarily more expensive or required more land.

"Look at Bochum or Wolfsburg. They are small grounds. So that is not true," said Pilz.

The AOL Arena is also at the more hi-tech end of the spectrum. At Werder Bremen's Weserstadion, seats are connected to barriers that run along the length of every second step in the standing section. They are flipped up and locked for domestic games, and flipped down and unlocked for European and international games, with a 50% reduction in capacity.

The German FA, in fact, is so convinced of the safety of standing sections, and the benefits they bring in terms of atmosphere and social inclusion, it has asked Fifa for permission to allow standing at international games. So far that permission has not been granted.

Pilz said: "As we saw during the World Cup, the current laws are ridiculous and suit only the VIPs. But nothing will change until other national associations join Germany in asking for standing areas."
 
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As a 15 year old, i have grown up going to watch football in seated stadiums, however, i have been to a few terraced stadiums for away games eg Bristol Rovers, Yeovil and Brentford. Although the atmosphere at these was'nt particulaly good, i much prefered standing. It was alot more enjoyable being allowed to stand without stewards coming up the steps every 2 minutes telling us off. I don't understand why the singing section, if not the majority of the ground can not have terracing!!! :shrug:

Becasue three years before you were born people were getting killed when standing on terraces at football grounds. Terraces were becoming regarded as dangerous, outmoded places to be provoking actions that had no place in a venue for entertainment

So you haven't been stuck behind a bigger person than you so seeing what is going on is very difficult. or stood in a huge pool of piss three inches deep kindly provided by the thousands standing behind you who can't get to the toilet at haf time, so just do it where they stand, which is one my abiding memories of the Cup Final Replay at Wembley ?
 


Here are some happy and content people enjoying themselves in december 1963 at a well known entertainment arena in Hove
Soccer-Football-League-Division-Three-Brighton-and-Hove-Albion-v-Crystal-Palace_682031.jpg

Soccer - Football League Division Three - Brighton and Hove Albion v Crystal Palace
Brighton and Hove Albion fans get a slightly elevated view of the match by standing on slabs of frozen snow on the terraces
© Copyright PA Prints 2008 - All Rights Reserved
Dated: 12th January 1963
Author: S&G
Credit: S&G and Barratts/PA Photos

sorry but is copyright protected..... but the link still works
 


steward 433

Back and better
Nov 4, 2007
9,512
Brighton
and makes the stadium take up miles more room to get it installed and operatational than simply putting seats in

The FLA's chief executive John de Quidt, however, said the German example was not "suitable" for English football.

He told BBC Sport he had been to Hamburg's AOL Arena to look at their solution - terrace steps that rotate through 180 degrees to enable both standing and seating options.

"There is no way that could work in England. (The Hamburg stand) was built on a huge site and on solid ground with no concourses underneath," said de Quidt.

"That kind of structure would not have fitted in any existing ground in England. It requires too much land and is too expensive.

"The German approach has to be seen in the context of giving cheap access to football matches. But English fans have paid an extra price for a high quality product. It is funny how we always hear about Germany. What about France or Italy?"

Pilz, however, disagreed with de Quidt's claim that the German model was necessarily more expensive or required more land.

"Look at Bochum or Wolfsburg. They are small grounds. So that is not true," said Pilz.

The AOL Arena is also at the more hi-tech end of the spectrum. At Werder Bremen's Weserstadion, seats are connected to barriers that run along the length of every second step in the standing section. They are flipped up and locked for domestic games, and flipped down and unlocked for European and international games, with a 50% reduction in capacity.

The German FA, in fact, is so convinced of the safety of standing sections, and the benefits they bring in terms of atmosphere and social inclusion, it has asked Fifa for permission to allow standing at international games. So far that permission has not been granted.

Pilz said: "As we saw during the World Cup, the current laws are ridiculous and suit only the VIPs. But nothing will change until other national associations join Germany in asking for standing areas."

The English version is very different as they Germans have "pens" this was part of the problem at Hillsborough all be it a very small part
 




Cheshire Cat

The most curious thing..


Slough Seagull

Bye Bye Slough
Nov 23, 2006
743
Bringing back terraces is never going happen in the the same way that rickets, typhoid and cholera is never going to be allowed to be a routine part of life (or death) again). The terrace debate was lost 20 years ago when people died on them. Get over it...
BBC - Liverpool - Local History - Hillsborough disaster
BBC - Manchester - Sport - Echoes of Hillsborough?

Please don't compare Hillsborough to cholera that still kills thousands and typhoid fever that still has an estimated 200,000 related deaths occuring worldwide each year.
 


Guy Fawkes

The voice of treason
Sep 29, 2007
8,280
Bringing back terraces is never going happen in the the same way that rickets, typhoid and cholera is never going to be allowed to be a routine part of life (or death) again). The terrace debate was lost 20 years ago when people died on them. Get over it...
BBC - Liverpool - Local History - Hillsborough disaster
BBC - Manchester - Sport - Echoes of Hillsborough?

Heysel_29051985_11.jpg

And by that arguement, the 56 deaths in the Bradford City fire in 1985 were caused by seating - therefore, should we ban everyone from watching football

The banning of Terraces after the Hillsborough disaster was a knee jerk over-reaction by the powers that be, trying to shift the blame elsewhere, (in this case, they blamed the Liverpool fans themselves, and the fact that so many turned up without tickets, trying to get in - not the principle concept of standing at matches)

The Hillsborough disaster had many contributing factors, and if it had occured at an all seater stadium, then you may have still had some deaths and injuries (caused by trapped limbs between seats) so why this may have happened if there were seats? - because there were too many trying to gain access to the ground and to one small area, behind the goal, (where the deaths occured) coupled with the fences present, and the fact that the police were more interested in hooligans, rather than safety, and failed to act to prevent disaster - maybe we should have banned the Police too?

Standing can happen safely at football matches, as seen on the continent, regulations can be introduced as to the minimum standards required to allow this to be re-introduced.
 




Bringing back terraces is never going happen in the the same way that rickets, typhoid and cholera is never going to be allowed to be a routine part of life (or death) again). The terrace debate was lost 20 years ago when people died on them. Get over it...
BBC - Liverpool - Local History - Hillsborough disaster
BBC - Manchester - Sport - Echoes of Hillsborough?

Heysel_29051985_11.jpg

You are showing Heysel there, a football stadium that wasn't fit to hold a game between Bevendean Barcelona and Hove Park Colts, let alone Liverpool vs Juventus.
The terrace debate was not lost twenty years ago, there was no debate, just a knee jerk reaction to a problem that could be easily solved without the removal of terraces.
 


Slough Seagull

Bye Bye Slough
Nov 23, 2006
743
That's what it's all about for me .
I'd so much rather be 1 of the 200 or so Ayr fans on a terrace away from home ,
with the freedom to sing , chant , celebrate and move around without hinderence ,
than say a modern day Chelsea or Man Utd supporter amongst 50k of their own forced to sit down and suffer the emotional restrctions .

:clap: something most of the glory hunting twats will never appreciate...
 


dougdeep

New member
May 9, 2004
37,732
SUNNY SEAFORD
I was surprised how many people were sitting at the Lewes game last week.
 






"the 56 deaths in the Bradford City fire in 1985 were caused by seating... "

The deaths at Valley Parade were caused primarily by smoking and the fact that the gates behind the stand could not be opened. If the author means that the stand was wooden, then the cause would be construction materials - I remember standing on wooden terraces in a wooden stand at Bury.
 


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