Teachers demand 10% pay rise in the middle of a recession

[BigGully]

Actually, you did!



I looked it up before I posted. £30,148 outside London for basic scale.



Point 6 on the scale. Reached on the fifth anniversary of starting, surely?



Teachers have had increases in line with inflation. Most of us outside the public sector haven't done much better than that. I work in construction....



In what way? I used to be married to a primary school teacher. Her sister was one too. Sister's husband could see it was cushy and has given up nursing to become a teacher.....

Bear in mind that primary kids are not such a physical threat as teenagers (though obviously parents can be intimidating), don't have the attitude, etc. The actual knowledge required of the subjects taught also doesn't need to be as detailed as secondary teachers (for example, my ex teaches kids how to use a computer, but is fecking useless at it herself).



I'm sure I'd rather teach 14 year olds too, but only for my own sanity. Adults that spend too much time with young kids get very dull. Not sure what your point about "work rate" is, but I can also assure you that the ex worked many less hours than me, even during term time.



I don't really want to knock teachers in this thread, but I also will never accept the attitude that many seem to have that they somehow have a much harder job than the rest of us and therefore deserve more. There are some who put up with some pretty terrible stuff in deprived areas, but mostly it's not as bad as they all make out.

A lot to respond to.

I definately didn't say that a teacher that had been working for 15 years is on less than £24,000, I said that my friend had enjoyed a successful 15 years ( good for him ) on twice as much as my Son's primary school teacher, by the way he may of been on twice as much as a teacher of 15 years too.

I will accept that point 6 will start at the start of any teachers 6th year.

A teachers rate of pay will depend on their pay scale, so any teacher who has not taught for 6 years will not be £30,148 as you stated, many considerably less.

The increase in line with inflation, something between 2-4%, the private sector and construction industries and others have faired far better.

You state that you 'havent done much better' indicating that you have actually done better than teachers, so why wouldnt teachers deserve to have done as well as those within your construction industry ??

I have noticed that although your ex-brother in law became a teacher because it was cushty you decided to stay within the construction industry.

You either do not have the necessary qualification/inclination to go into teaching or preferred the rewards of an over hyped and over inflated building boom.

I just happen to think that teachers deserve a greater respect than us in the private sector that may work hard but offer very little to the greater good.

 

[itszamora]

A lot to respond to.

I just happen to think that teachers deserve a greater respect than us in the private sector that may work hard but offer very little to the greater good.

As you seem to be using the construction industry as an example, who is it that builds schools then? Or indeed people's houses? There are lots of fields of work society could not manage without, teaching being just one.

 

[TrickyOne]

All very interesting reading all the various views of which I can understand all. As I understand it though, all schools are different with students of varied abilities. We live in a society that can now identify learning difficulties, whereupon state schools exercise inclusion for all whether students have difficulties in literacy, numeracy or behavioral issues. As teachers we have a duty of care and a responsibility to provide a high standard of teaching. When it comes to earnings there are pay scales and upper pay spines relating to experience and responsibilities. I do work hard to ensure 100% achievement on my courses and I would like better wages for myself as I can assure you I'm not on £30k...10% being asked for by the union is silly, but I'm sure most teachers have not voted on this and so is not truly representative on the whole. These are hard times and I'm sure if people have chosen to be teachers then it's more likely that they want to teach rather than just have long holidays. I have to say though in my time teaching I've not heard any teachers say that they want to go on strike because of money so maybe the argument is with the unions?

 

[Normal Rob]

Harsh

Do you know any nurses, in particular ones that work A&E who actually save lives and have to deal with the threat of attack from pissed up knobs every Friday and Saturday night?

Nurses, ambulance drivers, midwives, etc deserve double what they get for the service they provide

yes I do know a couple of nurses.

My point is that people have been saying that nurses are not fairly paid for dozens of years now.


1 - I think that they earn a reasonable wage.
2 - They must have gone into the jpb with open eyes. If it was money that they wanted - why enter the profession?

anyway - back to teachers....

 

[sully]

A lot to respond to.

I definately didn't say that a teacher that had been working for 15 years is on less than £24,000, I said that my friend had enjoyed a successful 15 years ( good for him ) on twice as much as my Son's primary school teacher, by the way he may of been on twice as much as a teacher of 15 years too.

Like I said, not much of a comparison looking at someone who has been doing the same job for 15 years and making money against a newly qualified teacher with no experience!

I will accept that point 6 will start at the start of any teachers 6th year.

A teachers rate of pay will depend on their pay scale, so any teacher who has not taught for 6 years will not be £30,148 as you stated, many considerably less.

No, not "considerably" less. Still nearly average national salary as a starting salary. But, anyway, you were making comparisons with experienced builders, so it's not relevant, as an inexperienced builder won't earn that much either.

The increase in line with inflation, something between 2-4%, the private sector and construction industries and others have faired far better.

Which ones, out of interest? Certainly not mine.

You state that you 'havent done much better' indicating that you have actually done better than teachers, so why wouldnt teachers deserve to have done as well as those within your construction industry ??

Over my career, there have been a number of recessions through which I have endured pay freezes and reductions. Overall, I believe it pretty much evens itself out.

I have noticed that although your ex-brother in law became a teacher because it was cushty you decided to stay within the construction industry.

Why wouldn't I? It's what I'm qualified to do, and I actually enjoy my work! It's not me complaining about working conditions and pay and how stressful it is all the time!

You either do not have the necessary qualification/inclination to go into teaching or preferred the rewards of an over hyped and over inflated building boom.

You have no idea. I could do a PGCE and be a teacher in a year if I wanted to. I don't. The building boom can't be over-hyped and over-inflated. It was mostly hype. A few will have done very nicely out of it, but they would mostly be those taking the most risks with little or no job security, and are much the same people who are currently unemployed.

I just happen to think that teachers deserve a greater respect than us in the private sector that may work hard but offer very little to the greater good.

Many of them do have my respect, but they are just another cog in society, and no more or less important than many others. I believe that they are generally reasonably paid for what they do and the skills they possess. I know more teachers who do the job for the holidays than because they're desperately keen on the vocation. Ex-sister-in-law actually went into it because she decided it would be an easier option than social work, which had been her first choice and what she was trained in at college.

 

[BigGully]

As you seem to be using the construction industry as an example, who is it that builds schools then? Or indeed people's houses? There are lots of fields of work society could not manage without, teaching being just one.

The example I am trying to convey is that whilst a jobbing builder have been charging £150+ a day for many many years and yes they have, I am not too sure why you now seem up in arms that teachers, NUT specifically think they deserve a 10% pay rise.

Many within the private sector including construction have seen quite unprecedented rises in their own income, many are hurting at present and thats unfortunate, but although I recognise the absurdity of the timing of this pay increase request, it seems strange that many that up to now have enjoyed pay increases of more than the 10% should somehow demand restraint after many years of excesses themselves.

 

[BigGully]

Like I said, not much of a comparison looking at someone who has been doing the same job for 15 years and making money against a newly qualified teacher with no experience!



No, not "considerably" less. Still nearly average national salary as a starting salary. But, anyway, you were making comparisons with experienced builders, so it's not relevant, as an inexperienced builder won't earn that much either.



Which ones, out of interest? Certainly not mine.



Over my career, there have been a number of recessions through which I have endured pay freezes and reductions. Overall, I believe it pretty much evens itself out.



Why wouldn't I? It's what I'm qualified to do, and I actually enjoy my work! It's not me complaining about working conditions and pay and how stressful it is all the time!



You have no idea. I could do a PGCE and be a teacher in a year if I wanted to. I don't. The building boom can't be over-hyped and over-inflated. It was mostly hype. A few will have done very nicely out of it, but they would mostly be those taking the most risks with little or no job security, and are much the same people who are currently unemployed.



Many of them do have my respect, but they are just another cog in society, and no more or less important than many others. I believe that they are generally reasonably paid for what they do and the skills they possess. I know more teachers who do the job for the holidays than because they're desperately keen on the vocation. Ex-sister-in-law actually went into it because she decided it would be an easier option than social work, which had been her first choice and what she was trained in at college.

I apologise if I cannot respond to each point and I accept that of course each industry is inter-dependable, certainly construction has become one of the more important driving forces of our economy, some might say to our detriment !

But to somehow not acknowledge the growth of the construction and some service industries ahead of teachers pay, I think is inconsistent.

 

[sully]

I apologise if I cannot respond to each point and I accept that of course each industry is inter-dependable, certainly construction has become one of the more important driving forces of our economy, some might say to our detriment !

But to somehow not acknowledge the growth of the construction and some service industries ahead of teachers pay, I think is inconsistent.

I just find it absurd that you assume that everyone in construction has been enjoying over 10% pay increases at any time during the last 15 years. I've certainly not had a pay rise that big for as long as I can remember! Our salary levels probably never got back to where they were (in real terms) at the beginning of the 90s when the last big crash in construction happened. Self employed people make money when they can and have to take the rough with the smooth, but those on salaries have not seen the increases you are suggesting and many are now losing their jobs or being asked to take pay cuts / take on extra work / work longer hours.

I have other stuff to do now so won't continue this any longer. My only real point was that teachers are NOT a special case. They are actually lucky to have one of the few secure jobs in our society. My parents had jobs for life, but it's not like that for Mr Average nowadays.

 

[Questions]

Teachers ? I`ve never met a bigger group of under performing, whinging, overpaid, under worked, useless twits in all my life.

10 % pay cut I say.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Teachers ? I`ve never met a bigger group of under performing, whinging, overpaid, under worked, useless twits in all my life.

And that comes from a NSC regular.

 

[BigGully]

I just find it absurd that you assume that everyone in construction has been enjoying over 10% pay increases at any time during the last 15 years. I've certainly not had a pay rise that big for as long as I can remember! Our salary levels probably never got back to where they were (in real terms) at the beginning of the 90s when the last big crash in construction happened. Self employed people make money when they can and have to take the rough with the smooth, but those on salaries have not seen the increases you are suggesting and many are now losing their jobs or being asked to take pay cuts / take on extra work / work longer hours.

I have other stuff to do now so won't continue this any longer. My only real point was that teachers are NOT a special case. They are actually lucky to have one of the few secure jobs in our society. My parents had jobs for life, but it's not like that for Mr Average nowadays.

I also have some other stuff to do also, but I will respond.

Teaching's strength is the security of their profession, I agree, whereas self employment can offer rewards both financially and personally and sometimes not, especially now during these difficult times some will baulk at the NUT's demands, timing seems a little bit absurd.

I cannot comment on your personal circumstances, but generally some sectors within our economy, including construction has seen some unprecedented growth, much more than what the NUT are now asking for their members.

Our own houses have seen their value triple and up until now house building with the incomes from those trades associated with that boom have been far greater than the 10% that teachers are now asking.

The teachers havent got a chance to get their increase but to dismiss the validity of the claim based on the current economic climate whilst not acknowledging their lack of increase at a time of plenty, I think is slightly blinkered.

 

[fork me]

Is the pay really that shit though? There are professions that pay more but there are also those that pay a lot worse. Lots of the teachers I know kind of fell into it because they didn't know what to do when they left University, I don't know if this has more to do with it.

OK, let's put this into perspective.

yes, we get paid more than a lot of people, but we get paid less than people in comparable jobs. I'm a science teacher, with my qualifications, I could earn a lot more elsewhere, probably with less responsibility.

10% is a pisstake in the current climate, but the NUT aren't stupid, they know we'll ALWAYS get a lot less than we demand. Demanding 10% means the government can give us the 2.3% we've already been promised without losing face. Chances are. without this demand they'd try and cut that citing the recession as an excuse.

To strike for 10% would require a ballot of members and the Union wouldn't win it.

It's all, politics, don't take it so seriously.

Fork Me - off to Amsterdam tomorrow morning as it's still the Easter break.

 

[fork me]

ONLY 5 years to get to £25-27k I wish I had chosen to be a teacher

That's five years AFTER at least 4, usually 5 years unpaid to qualify.

It's not a lot for a post-graduate profession.

 

[beorhthelm]

...but the NUT aren't stupid

i disagree, they are making a very bad impression of teachers for the current economic climate. and isnt it about time unions in general grew up and stopped this approach to pay negotiations? really its about justifying their existance.

@ Brixtaan, point about RPI (Retail Pirce Index), this covers mortgage repayments and other things that have fallen, which are excluded from the Consumer Price Index.

 

[hitony]

i work in the private sector and received 100% of f*** all.

I worked in the private sector..............I got made redundant.

 

[trueblue]

I don't think the point about people in construction is particularly valid. While I'm sure there are plenty of rich builders around, I imagine most of them are ones who have their own business rather than those that work for other people.

While the self-employed can, through their own initiative and hard work, make lots of money they also have to shoulder the risk of losing a lot of money. There's no safety net when things go wrong. Those people who are prepared to take that risk shouldn't be pilloried just because they've made a success of their business. And the likelihood is they've worked every bit as hard to reach that position (generally, in fact, even harder) than those who happen to be underpaid in the more altruistic vocations like teaching and nursing.

You'd be better off drawing comparisons with the CEOs of banks and the like who have never taken any personal financial risk, and yet nowadays award themselves the type of salaries previously only achievable by entrepreneurs.

 

[BigGully]

I don't think the point about people in construction is particularly valid. While I'm sure there are plenty of rich builders around, I imagine most of them are ones who have their own business rather than those that work for other people.

While the self-employed can, through their own initiative and hard work, make lots of money they also have to shoulder the risk of losing a lot of money. There's no safety net when things go wrong. Those people who are prepared to take that risk shouldn't be pilloried just because they've made a success of their business. And the likelihood is they've worked every bit as hard to reach that position (generally, in fact, even harder) than those who happen to be underpaid in the more altruistic vocations like teaching and nursing.

You'd be better off drawing comparisons with the CEOs of banks and the like who have never taken any personal financial risk, and yet nowadays award themselves the type of salaries previously only achievable by entrepreneurs.

The point about construction was in response to a guy that happens to be in construction, thats all.

I happen to be self employed and open to the vagaries of the market like every other self employed person and recognise the benefits of having a secure job and salary enjoyed by teachers and other public sector workers.

But I also recognise that for the most part most sectors of the private sector have enjoyed significant gains in recent years.

You can't draw comparison's of Classroom teachers and CEO of banks, it just is not comparable.

You must look at a classroom teachers regular salary with some within the private sector that had a similar income in recent years, it will then become apparent that actually their wages have been quite derisory compared to other post graduate professionals.

We all embrace the security of a regular wage at times of recession, but we all conveniently forget this whilst we are busy making profit way above what our teacher's have been paid in recent times.

If we in the private sector are encouraged to bemoan this current economic turmoil why not the teachers too, they have a point.

 

[trueblue]

You can't draw comparison's of Classroom teachers and CEO of banks, it just is not comparable.

You must look at a classroom teachers regular salary with some within the private sector that had a similar income in recent years, it will then become apparent that actually their wages have been quite derisory compared to other post graduate professionals.

I wasn't saying that the treatment of teachers has been comparable to the CEO's of banks. I was saying that there are some private sector 'employees' (as opposed to the self-employed) who have made unjustifiable gains, and it would be more relevant to draw comparisons with those.

Incidentally, of those other post graduate professionals you talk about, I wonder how many are now facing redundancy rather than a continuing lower but 'job for life' salary? That security is the trade-off some teachers need to take into account.

While I appreciate the good work they do, I also feel some are rather deluded about the realities of life in the private sector.

In my case, I'm a journalist. I've worked in the media for 25 years and, when I was an employee, never once had an above inflation pay rise. As a freelance, the daily rates (negotiated individually) have stayed the same for the past 10 years because of the increased competition/cheaper labour within the industry. I have no meaningful union representation, the 'holiday pay' that became law was simply incorporated within the original daily fees, European working time directives are not applied, and pensions/payment protection insurance/health care etc are, of course, all down to me to sort out and pay for.

I do earn considerably more than teachers, but I've had long spells of working 70 hour weeks in the past to reach this position. I still work virtually every weekend , often on both days, until the early hours of the morning as well as almost all public holidays bar Christmas Day. If (when?) the work dries up, I'm on my own.

I'm not complaining. I love my job and that's the path I chose to pursue, largely to the exclusion of a social and family life, but we all have those choices. If teachers feel they're being dealt such a bad hand, they have the option like everyone else to consider finding an alternative job.

In many ways, this is a pointless debate anyway as, I suspect, a lot of teachers are actually happy with their lot, and disappointed to find their union making such an ill-judged claim in the current climate.

 

[BigGully]

I wasn't saying that the treatment of teachers has been comparable to the CEO's of banks. I was saying that there are some private sector 'employees' (as opposed to the self-employed) who have made unjustifiable gains, and it would be more relevant to draw comparisons with those.

Incidentally, of those other post graduate professionals you talk about, I wonder how many are now facing redundancy rather than a continuing lower but 'job for life' salary? That security is the trade-off some teachers need to take into account.

While I appreciate the good work they do, I also feel some are rather deluded about the realities of life in the private sector.

In my case, I'm a journalist. I've worked in the media for 25 years and, when I was an employee, never once had an above inflation pay rise. As a freelance, the daily rates (negotiated individually) have stayed the same for the past 10 years because of the increased competition/cheaper labour within the industry. I have no meaningful union representation, the 'holiday pay' that became law was simply incorporated within the original daily fees, European working time directives are not applied, and pensions/payment protection insurance/health care etc are, of course, all down to me to sort out and pay for.

I do earn considerably more than teachers, but I've had long spells of working 70 hour weeks in the past to reach this position. I still work virtually every weekend , often on both days, until the early hours of the morning as well as almost all public holidays bar Christmas Day. If (when?) the work dries up, I'm on my own.

I'm not complaining. I love my job and that's the path I chose to pursue, largely to the exclusion of a social and family life, but we all have those choices. If teachers feel they're being dealt such a bad hand, they have the option like everyone else to consider finding an alternative job.

In many ways, this is a pointless debate anyway as, I suspect, a lot of teachers are actually happy with their lot, and disappointed to find their union making such an ill-judged claim in the current climate.

I am not sure that teachers do feel that they have been dealt a bad hand.

But they as any employee need to ask for pay rises if they feel it deserving and hope to put a reasonable argument to try to secure that rise.

I think thats fair, however I think the timing is ill judged and bound to fail, but maybe they are legally obliged to negotiate at this time, I am not sure.

You as a journalist enjoy an income considerably more than a teacher, which is a very good wage and something I am sure you deserve, ultimately the market would dictate your worth and you have no need to justify it.

However the union may feel that their members can offer a similar working ethos, qualification and literacy skills as yourself and would therefore demand some financial parity with you and other journalists.

 

[Ex-Staffs Gull]

ONLY 5 years to get to £25-27k I wish I had chosen to be a teacher

Well you still could!!!

To be a teacher you need a 3 year degree in a subject plus an extra year of practice (PGCE).

Teaching is not greatly paid, yeas the holidays are nice, but you do tend to (well at least I did) work for at least half of that preparing for the next term/year.

I also never really had a clear weekend or evening as I was marking an increasing amount of homework as to meet syllabus objectives the kids (sorry, clients) had to do more and more out of school/college.

Maybe it has changed again in thw 10 years since I left, but unless you got responsibility points, teaching was not that great. If it was, it would be as hard to get onto a PGCE as it is to get into medicine, vetenary school or law.

I was a secondary teacher in Birmingham for 6 years and jumped because of
a) OFSTED was a farce.
b) One year contracts was normal (5 jobs in 6 years)
c) I effectively doubled my salary in 5 years by going back to Uni and doing a Masters in Computer science and working in IT.