So is anyone here on strike?

[Deportivo Seagull]

My wife is also a teacher and just left for the level. It is the first time her union has gone on strike in their 127 year old history. She easily works 60 hours in a week, The govt have said they are going to do the following to our family without any negotiation.


Put up her contributions by more than 50 per cent – from 6.4 per cent to 9.8 per cent of salary = £100 a month

Make her work to 68

Cut her total pot by 1/5

Refuse to provide proof that the teacher's pension even runs with a deficit.

Carry on giving tax breaks to the top 1% of earners in this country that if reapplied would equate to a bloody big chunk of your average public sector workers recent pay cuts.

Well she's got my support!

Unfortunately it's not pleasant. One of the problems is that successive governments, Unions and companies have had their collective heads firmly stuffed into a bucket of sand.

Contributions of 6.4 % ware simply to low and should have slowly been ramped up over the last ten years, there is one school of thought that believes 12% is the optimum contribution. The only thing to make it slightly less painful is the tax relief.

68! join the rest of us. If you are below 30 I reckon you'll retire at 70. Interestingly when the state pension was first introduced at 65 it was assumed that people would die at 66! I believe that women are expected to live to 85, men 83.

1/5 can't comment as I don't have all the info, but is this to do with average rather than final three years?

As for the deficit, I know from talking with some pension acturies in 2007 that public sector pensions were a 'mess' regards funding, so we can safely assume that it is in deficit.

As I said not pleasant, not fair but something has to be done. You simply cannot continue to use 20% of council tax revenue to pay pensions, and it will get worse, much worse.

One final comment. DB scheme's of 80th's and average final salary still pisses on any DC scheme around, believe me I would trade my DC scheme for the above at a drop of a hat. My concern would be if this turns nasty you may well loose the DB scheme itself.

As for the tax breaks, how about George 'clueless' Obsourn comment just after Christmas that he might remove the 50% tax bracket as it ' doesn't bring that much in'. Contemptable isn't it!

 

[matildaseagull]

I am on strike today. For the first time in 20 years of teaching.

I was tempted into teaching because I wanted to do some good in society and help children to achieve, but a secondary reason was the pension. Now the government are attempting to move the goalposts, to change the contract I entered into all those years ago. I was going to retire in 18 year's time, now it could be 24 years, so effectively I now have to work 33% longer,pay £100 more a month, and receive a sustancially smaller pension. Personally, in years to come, I would prefer my grandchildren be taught by young, energetic teachers with fresh ideas, than 66 year old teachers limping towards retirement.

I am sympathetic to those parents who have been disrupted by today's action, but there appears to be no real choice. All parents I have spoken to have been very supportive.

 

[xenophon]

Ask the 15000 Lloyds employees losing their jobs this year... after ther 25000 in the last couple of years.

Then ask the cabal at the top, who's cutting their pensions? That's who I meant, workers in the private sector are getting screwed too, everyone but the bastards who kicked it all off.

Listen "Bankers" are the fat cats, the speculators, the old boys' clubs, the CEOs, the money men, not the poor sods who grind away in the branches & offices

'kinell

 

[Titanic]

Then ask the cabal at the top, who's cutting their pensions? That's who I meant, workers in the private sector are getting screwed too, everyone but the bastards who kicked it all off.

Listen "Bankers" are the fat cats, the speculators, the old boys' clubs, the CEOs, the money men, not the poor sods who grind away in the branches & offices

'kinell

What on earth does the renumeration of a few 'bankers' have to do with the affordability of public sector pensions?

That just sounds like the politics of envy.

 

[xenophon]

Tory soundbites: "politics of envy"

To even bandy about a term like that means you accept summat's not right, i.e. there's haves and have-nots. Of course there will always be leaders and elites, but it's not a level playing field. If you're comfortable with the bonuses and tax breaks for the very top earners (many of whom are directly responsible for the recession), while the bottom pays the defecit then crack on.

It was the same with "cracking down" on benefit fraud, when the reality is benefit evasion (people not picking up benefits that are due to them) outstrips a few scraps getting snatched off the table at the bottom of the social scale. Then we have the Philip Greens of the world, and all the other tax avoiders at the top, who's going after them?

 

[Curious Orange]

Got to love this thread, festooned with generalisations, party politics, and them and us attitudes. Very entertaining.

I worked as an Annuity Administrator 10 years ago, and it was obvious even then that there were problems with the funding of all types of schemes (particularly unfunded ones ). The fact of the matter is that, back then, to get a £10k annuity at normal retirement age you'd need at least a £100k premium... and an impairment. I don't think that situation has improved in the intervening years, and defined benefits schemes are even more expensive.

 

[sten_super]

No sorry but you've still lost me. As I have to eat, drive a car and use power/water etc I don't have a choice. Whoever I end up using I pay towards their pension scheme. I therefore do not have a choice if I want to live a normal existence. How on earth can I choose anyway between the 'good' and 'bad' private companies as they don't supply enough detail for me to make that choice even if I could.

Maybe I'm arguing this from slightly the wrong perspective; yes you (I/anyone - this is aimed specifically at one person) put money into both the public and private sector - but you don't have sense of ownership over the private sector that you do over the public sector. The private sector company reports to its shareholders, and has to justify it's position/behaviour to them. The public sector (generally speaking) has to justify itself to MPs, who are our representatives, and therefore ultimately has to justify itself to us.

More generally, there are two issues here which are being confused/overlapping. Am I happy with the tax rates paid by the mega-rich? Not particularly. Do I think that teachers (I'm talking about teachers as I know the situation and the details of their scheme) pension scheme is sensible and should be sustained in its current way? No. The two issues viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.

 

[xenophon]

It's time to pick sides

 

[BLOCK F]

I am on strike today. For the first time in 20 years of teaching.

I was tempted into teaching because I wanted to do some good in society and help children to achieve, but a secondary reason was the pension. Now the government are attempting to move the goalposts, to change the contract I entered into all those years ago. I was going to retire in 18 year's time, now it could be 24 years, so effectively I now have to work 33% longer,pay £100 more a month, and receive a sustancially smaller pension. Personally, in years to come, I would prefer my grandchildren be taught by young, energetic teachers with fresh ideas, than 66 year old teachers limping towards retirement.

I am sympathetic to those parents who have been disrupted by today's action, but there appears to be no real choice. All parents I have spoken to have been very supportive.

Welcome to the world many in the private sector have inhabited for years...or should I say almost the same world.Many of us ,myself included have to rely on the fortunes of the stockmarket for our pension pots to grow or diminish! Bet you wouldn't fancy that. Even after the changes you still have a better deal than the majority of those in the private sector.
Sorry mate no support from me.By the way,what makes you think public sector workers should have a far superior pension scheme to those in the private sector especially when it is no longer affordable?To be fair,the whole question of public sector pensions should have been tackled years ago,but Governments have ducked the issue.
P.S.Don't you think that many private sector workers are having to work longer than they planned?

 

[Curious Orange]

It's time to pick sides

There isn't a right or wrong side in this argument, so I'm not sure that I can.

 

[Albumen]

The Tories are a party of the rich for the rich, always were always will be. Divide and conquer, from useful idiots who sing the praises of 'cuts' while the Tories drip just enough to the right people, to the rest of the great unwashed. This is the last hurrah for the neutered unions, it started with Thatcher, carried on disgracefully with New Labour. The working people of the UK will always be expected to pay for the crimes of the ruling elite. They came for the private pensions, now they're after the public sector. Gideon and Dave and the rest of their old public schoolboy network are ok, they were millionaires before the 2008 collapse.

Remember we're all middle-class now

Post of the thread.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

Some observations:

I took industrial action twice during 30+ years, probably one of the hardest decisions I ever took because I am not a militant type and my occupation was not one that you choose lightly however I could not stand for the Govts (both Labour) incessant spin and lies as it tried to avoid honouring the findings of an independent pay and conditions review. What also really annoyed me were those colleagues that failed to show solidarity with others with a peaceful protest at the workplaces, preferring to use the day as 'holiday', go to the beach or worse still did other casual paid work....

I find todays situation hard to bear because it is decent working people who are being penalised for the sins of the banks. If the Govt had balls it would get the banks to make a significant contribution to the deficit. I would also hammer those that avoid paying tax, rather than squeeze those that already pay theirs. I also find it a bit rich that the UK is subsidising Greece thru the IMF and yet Greece has a huge tax avoidance culture. If governments got a grip on these issues then the deficit would be substantially less and we wouldnt be in this position.

However there is no doubt that pensions reform is required to find a more equitable system across public and private sectors. I note that many people moan about paying 5-6% contributions which clearly cannot fund any sort of decent pension. I had to pay 11% gross for 30 years including several years in the early 90's when I was also saddled with a 12% mortgage and negative equity. Membership of the scheme was mandatory. My local government employer also made decent contributions but was equally culpable - they had various opportunities to invest my pension contributions but chose to use these to pay for day to day services, so my scheme was in effect 'unfunded' which created a spiralling deficit. Although the scheme ceased several years ago and was replaced by a more cost effective scheme it is now proposed to put contributions up to 14%, further reduce the employers contribution and reduce the benefits.

Finally I do wonder if people have had too many years of easy credit, low mortage rates, lower pension contributions, lower tax rates and there is no culture of saving for the future or putting off sorting out a pension. I fear there is a ticking bomb where those who choose to live for today will expect to be bailed out sometime in the future.....but the kitty will be empty.

 

[Titanic]

Tory soundbites: "politics of envy"

To even bandy about a term like that means you accept summat's not right, i.e. there's haves and have-nots. Of course there will always be leaders and elites, but it's not a level playing field. If you're comfortable with the bonuses and tax breaks for the very top earners (many of whom are directly responsible for the recession), while the bottom pays the defecit then crack on...

Thanks. Just how much would you raise by punitive tax rises for this elite of very top earners?

 

[Simster]

Welcome to the world many in the private sector have inhabited for years...or should I say almost the same world.Many of us ,myself included have to rely on the fortunes of the stockmarket for our pension pots to grow or diminish! Bet you wouldn't fancy that. Even after the changes you still have a better deal than the majority of those in the private sector.
Sorry mate no support from me.By the way,what makes you think public sector workers should have a far superior pension scheme to those in the private sector especially when it is no longer affordable?To be fair,the whole question of public sector pensions should have been tackled years ago,but Governments have ducked the issue.
P.S.Don't you think that many private sector workers are having to work longer than they planned?

I'd be interested to know if your private sector pension arrangements were dramatically altered overnight, or whether they have been gradually made less attractive over a number of years.

For me, this is the crux of the issue. I don't think we can afford to make generous (unsustainable) pensions a carrot for working in the public sector anymore, but imposing 3 enormous changes on public sector pensions at once is simply unfair.

 

[Albumen]

Some observations:

I took industrial action twice during 30+ years, probably one of the hardest decisions I ever took because I am not a militant type and my occupation was not one that you choose lightly however I could not stand for the Govts (both Labour) incessant spin and lies as it tried to avoid honouring the findings of an independent pay and conditions review. What also really annoyed me were those colleagues that failed to show solidarity with others with a peaceful protest at the workplaces, preferring to use the day as 'holiday', go to the beach or worse still did other casual paid work....

I find todays situation hard to bear because it is decent working people who are being penalised for the sins of the banks. If the Govt had balls it would get the banks to make a significant contribution to the deficit. I would also hammer those that avoid paying tax, rather than squeeze those that already pay theirs. I also find it a bit rich that the UK is subsidising Greece thru the IMF and yet Greece has a huge tax avoidance culture. If governments got a grip on these issues then the deficit would be substantially less and we wouldnt be in this position.

However there is no doubt that pensions reform is required to find a more equitable system across public and private sectors. I note that many people moan about paying 5-6% contributions which clearly cannot fund any sort of decent pension. I had to pay 11% gross for 30 years including several years in the early 90's when I was also saddled with a 12% mortgage and negative equity. Membership of the scheme was mandatory. My local government employer also made decent contributions but was equally culpable - they had various opportunities to invest my pension contributions but chose to use these to pay for day to day services, so my scheme was in effect 'unfunded' which created a spiralling deficit. Although the scheme ceased several years ago and was replaced by a more cost effective scheme it is now proposed to put contributions up to 14%, further reduce the employers contribution and reduce the benefits.

Finally I do wonder if people have had too many years of easy credit, low mortage rates, lower pension contributions, lower tax rates and there is no culture of saving for the future or putting off sorting out a pension. I fear there is a ticking bomb where those who choose to live for today will expect to be bailed out sometime in the future.....but the kitty will be empty.

Good post. I too fear that. I'm nearly 40 and half my friends dont have a pension as they don't think they won't exist in 25 years time. I have one and I'm open to an average income rather than final pay, but making these 'cuts', aiming it at the public sector rather than the banks and the rich who cause the top heaving economy in the first place is disgusting.

 

[Dave the OAP]

when i worked in lewes 20 odd years ago, we attended a seminar where the title was " the pensions time bomb". It expressed the view that all pension plans were unsustainable with an aging population and people having less children.

Trouble is in teh last 10 year or so, times have been good....people were spending on credit cards and stupid banks and even stupider people were giving and taking 100%+ mortgages with the "gamble" that thehouse prices would go up - and the houses would provide some sort of pension pot. It was unsustainable and most learned people knew this, but it was not politically expediant to start to take measures that this mob have to do now.

Basic line is we are all living longer and someone will have to pay for this...the stock market is volatile with so called 3rd world countries now becoming the powerhouses of the world economy and due to our political choices and past, Britain is not somewhere that countries see to invest their money in any more. At the end of teh day, the banks pandered to society's needs in making money available and cheap....its now come home to roost.

Personally I think that teh public sector are being scapegoated in a cinical way by the establishment to deflect attention away from them.

 

[Highfields Seagull]

What on earth does the renumeration of a few 'bankers' have to do with the affordability of public sector pensions?

That just sounds like the politics of envy.

In that case, surely arguing against the pensions received by the public sector is also 'the politics of envy'.

 

[Titanic]

In that case, surely arguing against the pensions received by the public sector is also 'the politics of envy'.

No. The renumeration and tax rates for this elite of very top earners has absolutely nothing to do with the structure and affordability of public sector pensions. Unless you think you can raise enough from this small group of people to make a significant difference?

 

[xenophon]

Thanks. Just how much would you raise by punitive tax rises for this elite of very top earners?

Not enough to stop reform of public sector pension schemes I'm sure. But to unilaterally punish the public sector workforce for the sins of the top guys isn't on. Get back to the negotiating table, ease the pension cuts somewhat, hit the top earners, the tax dodgers. That would win around a lot more people to the need for reform.

But this is the Tory Party, it would be self-harm for them to go after their old school chums, not going to happen.

The changes will go through, corporate tax evasion will carry on, public sector workers will get demoralised, services will suffer as a consequence, and Giddy and the boys will be slapping themselves on the back for a "job well done" over cigars in the antique wood-panelled gentlemen's clubs of London.

 

[Titanic]

Not enough to stop reform of public sector pension schemes I'm sure.

Exactly... so it is simply a political diversion to avoid the real issue.