Shootings and explosion in Paris!

[OGH's Libido]

https://youtu.be/XBUqBjp1tBA

I have seen him before and I like this guy a lot.

He makes the point that it's ridiculous that British Muslims are expected to be able to root out the rotten eggs. He argues that it is the job of the security forces to do this, and besides, he doesn't mix with them whatsoever. And here of course, he is right.

I saw this on Facebook earlier, and it irritated me:



The bible, for all its crucifixions, stonings and accounts of violence doesn't implore people to murder members of societal groups or marginalise them. The Koran, on the other hand, literally calls on readers to murder heretics, adulterists, apostates and non believers.

In a way, I feel sorry for British Muslims who feel that the rest of us expect some kind of reaction. After all, like the guy in this video, they are kind, decent and law abiding. In other words, they are British. But man, some of the stuff in that book is ghastly. I don't want British Muslims to feel like they are to police the idiot minority among them, but Jeez, I wish some of them would just come out and say that some of that book is beyond the pale, and I wish more would admit that they consciously edit that stuff out of their mind and focus on the wisdom contained in what is left.

Yet the tiny minority are being, in part, inspired to commit heinous acts by fragments of scripture which command them to do it.

As long as those tiny fragments are in the Koran, I'm not going to accept that the argument that 'well, its a tiny, idiot minority' is going to get us anywhere. The guy in this video needs to realise this.

 

[BadFish]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...l/news-story/10a842260373216539c83ace9043f321

This example of normal muslims condemning the recent attacks came from my local paper.

 

[OGH's Libido]

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au...l/news-story/10a842260373216539c83ace9043f321

This example of normal muslims condemning the recent attacks came from my local paper.

But not calling for parts of the book to be rewritten or struck out. Not enough.

 

[BadFish]

But not calling for parts of the book to be rewritten or struck out. Not enough.

People have been calling for Muslims to come out and condemn actions like this for a long time now. Now that they have (or at least them doing so has been given more coverage) you say that it isn't enough.

If i was them i would be feeling like i can't win.

Personally i don't need normal, moderate and decent muslims to come out and call for their book to be rewritten or struck out as i assume that they have edited their beliefs and understand that times move on. I don't really need them to justify their beliefs to me, just like I don't expect Christians to condemn parts of the bible. why should they? we and they understand that it was written a long time ago and that you would have to be a nut job to take it literally.

 

[GT49er]

.......though i concede its a bigger deal in islam than others.

Well, that's nice of you anyway! I think they're the only lot (the extremist ones, that is) that regard it as a death penalty job. Everybody else seems to have grown out of that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

if that counts? most the principles of our modern world is based on Greek foundations, so yes it counts as western. the bible was original written in Greek (from Hebrew for OE), then Latin to English. Islam is anglisation of an Arabic word.

punishment for apostasy might have changed, but it is still punished within those communities that care about their religion, whatever it is. its one way how you keep people in, excommunication might not be execution, but it may be as significant in many cultures if you have no contact with friends and family. though i concede its a bigger deal in islam than others.

Point of order - the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the new in Greek. When it was translated into English, it was from the Greek & Hebrew, not from Latin. Latin has only applied to the Catholic Church.

 

[GT49er]

People have been calling for Muslims to come out and condemn actions like this for a long time now. Now that they have (or at least them doing so has been given more coverage) you say that it isn't enough.

If i was them i would be feeling like i can't win.

Personally i don't need normal, moderate and decent muslims to come out and call for their book to be rewritten or struck out as i assume that they have edited their beliefs and understand that times move on. I don't really need them to justify their beliefs to me, just like I don't expect Christians to condemn parts of the bible. why should they? we and they understand that it was written a long time ago and that you would have to be a nut job to take it literally.

But that's the point isn't it. It's not Christians (or Sikhs or Hindus or atheists or whatever) that have come up with a warped perverted version of their own religion, and then started a campaign to force the rest of the world to either go along with their warped, evil, perverted world......or be killed. It's Muslims; yes, I know it's not all of them.....but do we know that they're not (privately) a little bit pleased at what's going on - good on 'the boys' for fighting for Islam and all that - and more importantly, are the perverted ones still able to believe they have the entire Muslim community behind them?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

For those of you who have driven from Calais to Germany, through Belgium and holland, will know that there are no borders to speak of. We have done it a few times and never been stopped at any border post.

We did exactly that on Saturday. There's just a road sign saying Belgie or France, the same as county signs in this country. Even on Saturday within 12 hours of the attacks, the 'border' was empty.

 

[One Love]

.but do we know that they're not (privately) a little bit pleased at what's going on - good on 'the boys' for fighting for Islam and all that -

No. They are under just as much threat to their normal way of life as we are.

 

[OGH's Libido]

you would have to be a nut job to take it literally.

To Muslims the Koran is literally the word of God. It wasn't written, it was revealed. This makes it unique among other monotheist texts. That's the whole point and a big part of the problem. Moderates find it hard to shout down the nutters who've seized on a particularly violent part.

And so because of this, I won't be happy until it's edited, and I have always been consistent about this.

In my post a bit further up, you will see that I did have sympathy for British Muslims, and other moderates too.

All I'm asking is for someone to come forward and touch it up until bits of it don't resemble the scribblings of a death cult. Which if you think about it, isn't asking for much at all.

 

[GT49er]

No. They are under just as much threat to their normal way of life as we are.

".....- and more importantly, are the perverted ones still able to believe they have the entire Muslim community behind them?" - as stated, more importantly. Miss that bit out 'cos it didn't fit with your view then?

 

[GT49er]

All I'm asking is for someone to come forward and touch is up until bits of it don't resemble the scribblings of a death cult. Which if you think about it, isn't asking for much at all.

Well, the person who tries to do it is likely to be the subject of a fatwah, and to have his head severed from his neck in an excrutiatingly frightening and painful way if he is caught by one of the murderous loonies that are wandering around the world these days, so yes, perhaps it is a bit of a big ask.

 

[One Love]

".....- and more importantly, are the perverted ones still able to believe they have the entire Muslim community behind them?" - as stated, more importantly.

No. They know they haven't got the entire Muslim community behind them.

Miss that bit out 'cos it didn't fit with your view then?

No. I thought answering that was needless from my answer to the first question.

 

[OGH's Libido]

Well, the person who tries to do it is likely to be the subject of a fatwah, and to have his head severed from his neck in an excrutiatingly frightening and painful way if he is caught by one of the murderous loonies that are wandering around the world these days, so yes, perhaps it is a bit of a big ask.

You make a good point. The whole thing is desperately sad.

 

[BadFish]

But that's the point isn't it. It's not Christians (or Sikhs or Hindus or atheists or whatever) that have come up with a warped perverted version of their own religion, and then started a campaign to force the rest of the world to either go along with their warped, evil, perverted world......or be killed. It's Muslims; yes, I know it's not all of them.....but do we know that they're not (privately) a little bit pleased at what's going on - good on 'the boys' for fighting for Islam and all that - and more importantly, are the perverted ones still able to believe they have the entire Muslim community behind them?

I guess this is a personal viewpoint, myself? i am going to assume that a Muslim is a decent person until i see reason to think otherwise. just like i do with everyone else. In my opinion the assumptions you are suggesting there are exactly what groups like ISIS would like as i think they want to drive a wedge between Muslims and non Muslims and create the war they are desperate to see. There is a huge divide between Muslim communities and other people in many different countries and i think this is what the extremist like and i have read a few examples of this divide making it easier for the extremist to recruit to their cause.

To be honest i don't know the answer but i think we need to tread carefully and not further alienate our Islamic communities. Having said that i think it is a good thing that Imans and spokes people are coming out to condemn the actions of lunatics acting in the name of their faith. This, i hope will go some way to improving relations in our communities.

 

[beorhthelm]

Point of order - the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the new in Greek. When it was translated into English, it was from the Greek & Hebrew, not from Latin. Latin has only applied to the Catholic Church.

well yes, i thought of that after and was about to re-word but didnt think anyone would notice i was only observing apostacy was a universal trait of religions, i didnt expect the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[Hastings gull]

People have been calling for Muslims to come out and condemn actions like this for a long time now. Now that they have (or at least them doing so has been given more coverage) you say that it isn't enough.

If i was them i would be feeling like i can't win.

Personally i don't need normal, moderate and decent muslims to come out and call for their book to be rewritten or struck out as i assume that they have edited their beliefs and understand that times move on. I don't really need them to justify their beliefs to me, just like I don't expect Christians to condemn parts of the bible. why should they? we and they understand that it was written a long time ago and that you would have to be a nut job to take it literally.

The letters in your paper are entirely commendable, and perhaps the writers of these may feel as you describe. The point is that those loudly condemning the actions of the nutters seem to be few and far between. I accept that the press not giving them coverage may be partially to blame and that some very prominent muslims have gone on record. But my impression is that it is still only a minority who have, if you like, actively reached out to other communities. I can't help feeling that a great deal more could be done -national open days for all mosques or some such initiative. Bombing, Security Services actions, etc etc can only do so much -the reality is that the extremists are going to have to be isolated within their own community, and this will not be easy, and take much moral courage because, I dare say, there is much intimidation from the ruthless and determined minority.

 

[BadFish]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...sked-what-hes-doing-about-isis-20151117103929

 

[Hastings gull]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...sked-what-hes-doing-about-isis-20151117103929

I looked at, which seems only fair, but do you not think that it is all rather convenient?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I looked at, which seems only fair, but do you not think that it is all rather convenient?

Whoosh