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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
- Aug 24, 2020
- 6,579
I don't know.
On the one hand they need to defend themselves. And it would take the war to Russia.
On the other hand, it would hand the propaganda advantage to Russia. 'Look at what the Ukrainians are doing to us. It's an act of war'.
Motogull
Todd Warrior
- Sep 16, 2005
- 10,254
No. They might just as well use them on themselves given what the response will be.
My take on all the Russian deaths - don't overlook the military training, it is all about following orders. However, those that have been raping and shooting civilians have no excuses. They are in the queue with Putin for the woodchipper.
I think that’s about the only thing that would lead to a nuclear attack. Having said that, I’d love to see some missiles raining down on the Kremlin. Putin would be incensed, embarrassed and made to look even more of a fool.
Can I say I want the Kremlin bombed or do we have to think of their poor families too?
Ditto.
It would be very gratifying to see Ukraine strike back - preferably on Moscow, as bombing some southern city that nobody's heard of would be broadcast as an act of aggression by Putin and his cronies feeding disinformation to the Russian public, whereas a chunk of Moscow in ruins would at least be an embarraassment for Putin - but gratifying as it would be, I don't think it will or should happen - the risk of horrendous escalation doesn't bear thinking about.
The nuclear equivalent of poking a wasps' nest with a stick.
Icy Gull
Back on the rollercoaster
- Jul 5, 2003
- 72,015
Hmmm, not suggesting for a minute that we should call Putin’s bluff but I am not convinced he would resort to going nuclear. He’d die and Russia (along with most of the world) would be decimated. I think he is desperate for a legacy, how do you have a legacy when everything is destroyed? He seems quite a paranoid guy who has no intention of dying, just bullying countries with the death of others meaning nothing. His death however……not sure he’s ready
British Bulldog
The great escape
- Feb 6, 2006
- 10,966
Rather see them sticking to defending Ukraine, Hitting Russia will only play in to Putins hands.
Super Steve Earle
Well-known member
Putin certainly has a legacy - possibly not ghe one he intended. I doubt he'll care about being reviled as an evil murder by the Western world though.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
No.
A proportion of the missiles are being shot down - I heard a reliable witness account that part of one destroyed missile landed in a field near Lviv - but too many are getting still getting through.
Putin is does not have the parts available to keep producing missiles and over time the missile threat will decrease.
Until then the best move is to flood Ukraine with more SAM systems - create an immense missile defence over as much of Ukraine as possible. Make it an aerial denial zone for Russian missiles and eventually bombers.
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jakarta
Well-known member
Having toured the Kremlin a few years back it is clear very few people live there - it is almost all government buildings.
It would be a powerful signal to flatten it but also the start of World War III so that's a no from me Clive...
Absolutely not.
Russian military units and personnel in Ukrainian territory are legitimate targets. Innocent Russian civilians are not. Plus as said, the likely escalation from there hardly bears thinking about.
[tweet]1516117438219309057[/tweet]
Interesting Twitter thread on how the US currently see the conflict. TL;DR version as follows;
- Donbas likely to become centre of conflict over the next week or so, but long range attacks on other cities likely to continue
- US still sending military aid despite Putin’s tantrum last week
- Some survivors from Moskva, no nuclear weaponry on board
Interesting Twitter thread on how the US currently see the conflict. TL;DR version as follows;
- Donbas likely to become centre of conflict over the next week or so, but long range attacks on other cities likely to continue
- US still sending military aid despite Putin’s tantrum last week
- Some survivors from Moskva, no nuclear weaponry on board
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,257
Make your mind up - one minute your apologising for your earlier post, saying it wasn't right to post it, and now you're mocking those who criticised you for posting it.
My hope for Russia, and subsequently the rest of Europe is not only that Putin is unequivocally defeated, captured and tried but that Alexei Navany then gets released from prison and goes on to become President of Russia. I believe he is their best hope of restoring order and ushering in a new age for Russia. He has the potential to be Russia’s Mandela.
After being poisoned for opposing Putin he got out to Germany, instead of staying safe he chose to go back to Russia, knowing he would go to prison or worse. But he knew unless he stood shoulder to shoulder with his fellow Russians he could never gain their trust. Brave man.
The problem being of course, that like Trump, like convicted criminal Johnson, they enjoy the support of poorly informed, even lazy sections of the electorate. People who consume pre-digested news.
The problem In Russia is even if you can convince the electorate that Putin is not acting in their interests, which is hard as unlike western democracies many of them simply do not have access to anything other than propaganda “news”, they are still afraid to protest or vote against him. Luckily a problem we don’t have in Britain. Yet. Though that may change with convicted criminal, Boris Johnson’s anti-protest bill.
Which is why Putin and his government has to be removed before a democratic election can take place.
How likely all those elements are to come together? I don’t know but I think it’s the best possible outcome.
After being poisoned for opposing Putin he got out to Germany, instead of staying safe he chose to go back to Russia, knowing he would go to prison or worse. But he knew unless he stood shoulder to shoulder with his fellow Russians he could never gain their trust. Brave man.
The problem being of course, that like Trump, like convicted criminal Johnson, they enjoy the support of poorly informed, even lazy sections of the electorate. People who consume pre-digested news.
The problem In Russia is even if you can convince the electorate that Putin is not acting in their interests, which is hard as unlike western democracies many of them simply do not have access to anything other than propaganda “news”, they are still afraid to protest or vote against him. Luckily a problem we don’t have in Britain. Yet. Though that may change with convicted criminal, Boris Johnson’s anti-protest bill.
Which is why Putin and his government has to be removed before a democratic election can take place.
How likely all those elements are to come together? I don’t know but I think it’s the best possible outcome.
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Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Do you have any actual evidence that Navalny could be Russia’s Mandela ? Being ‘not Putin’ is not sufficient to be some sort of saviour. Your claim does need to be backed up. In the same vein, your comparisons of Putin with Western politicians you dislike are a little tiresome. There are threads elsewhere for people to vent about their favourite hate figure. This one is about the war in Ukraine.
I didn’t compare Putin with western politicians. But I think the comparison with the electorate is useful in this context to illustrate the differences and parallels of someone running for power in Russia as opposed to running for power in a democracy. However, I was absolutely not comparing Putin to Johnson. I was making some comparisons between the way the electorate consume news. And I believe that is valid.
Navalny could be, symbolically “Russia’s Mandela” in some senses. It may appear to be a clumsy comparison, and there are certainly marked differences which would be silly to ignore. For example he has a plan to gain the support of Oligarchs by taxing them more but restoring some of their freedoms. Not ideal but you’re not going to gain support for power in Russia anytime soon unless you have the support of oligarchs. So we should perhaps view that as a necessary evil?
He has certainly suffered for his beliefs, returning to Russia to face imprisonment by the very government that attempted to assassinate him. Very risky. Very brave. And he has a solid belief that he can return Russia to it’s people and help establish a democracy.
His overriding goal is not necessarily to become President but to establish a democratic process whereby he or any other candidate has a fair chance of being elected.
He’s got a job on his hands but he is brave enough to stand up for it despite the very real risk of dying for that ideal. So yes I think he has the potential to be a Mandela figure. In a very real and tangible sense.
Vitally, his ambition is not to become Russian president but to put in place a system whereby the electorate can choose their president and receive impartial news to aid them in doing so. A democracy.
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Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
I think you know more about him than I do. The obvious question though is that if he such a threat then why doesn’t Putin simply have him bumped off now ? Wouldn’t be that difficult and Putin’s reputation can hardly go lower. He has a free hit.