[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Billy the Fish]

Yet Zahawi said the UK is leading the world in it’s support of the Ukraine last night??

Refugees aren't the only area of support. We all know the problems and it's definitely a stain on our nation, no argument from me.

In terms of military support between UK and US we probably are leading, google operation orbital. I only hear of it during Ben Wallace's address to parliament yesterday but it seems we've been training their armed forces and providing aid since 2014 along with the US, Canada, Sweden, Denmark and Poland.

We were supplying weapons when other countries were still refusing to. I suspect we're also supplying plenty of intelligence.

 

[birthofanorange]

NSC is getting a bit McCarthyism for my liking...

Maybe so, but the main point is to get this important thread back on track, which is why I feel there has been far fewer posts of import, recently.

 

[Triggaaar]

I like to question everything. I have never and will not ever condone the invasion. I just want to understand it. Propaganda and misinformation is everywhere and comes from all angles.

But it is important to distinguish between different levels of lying and different levels of wrong-doing.

It's like saying "You've gone over the speed limit, so you've done wrong" and saying that's the same as any other example of someone who has done wrong.
And like saying that our media here makes mistakes sometimes, or may give an angle on a story that's not totally unbiased, and then comparing that to the constant blatant lying in Russian media, due to their dictator.

You're doing what Russia wants you to do - just believe that everything is a lie, so they can carry on with their killing and you won't hold them to account, you'll just say "well, it's the same as the other governments".

 

[Triggaaar]

I have do have reservations about NATO as a solely defensive structure, because it cannot be independent of wider ambition.

Cannot? Where is your evidence for that?

My concern is what would ultimately bring peace to the region. If Russia left Ukraine now it would be a huge relief to all, but the nation will still need to find a peaceful resolution to the internal strife

What internal strife? Ukraine wasn't having a civil war or anything before Russia invaded. If Russia left, I'm sure Ukrainians would be happy to have their country back, and to start building again.

I just want to see a nation, partitioned or not, to have the opportunity to recover and prosper, free of outside manipulation.

Then you want Russia to drop all their claims and withdraw immediately. Excellent, I'm sure we can all agree with you there.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Dunno if this was mentioned earlier in the thread as I do not want to trawl through the last few pages but a military analyst (Hamish someone) on R5 earlier said that the attack on the maternity hospital yesterday was 1 x 500 pound targeted bomb and that there was no way it was not deliberate.

 

[Razzoo]

But it is important to distinguish between different levels of lying and different levels of wrong-doing.

It's like saying "You've gone over the speed limit, so you've done wrong" and saying that's the same as any other example of someone who has done wrong.
And like saying that our media here makes mistakes sometimes, or may give an angle on a story that's not totally unbiased, and then comparing that to the constant blatant lying in Russian media, due to their dictator.

You're doing what Russia wants you to do - just believe that everything is a lie, so they can carry on with their killing and you won't hold them to account, you'll just say "well, it's the same as the other governments".

Earlier I posted what I thought was an interesting piece by Carlson from Fox News. I understand they have an agenda they have bias. Is he really doing the Kremlin's bidding? Is he on their payroll? I have to be clear, it's only in the last three weeks I have paid much attention to the geopolitical issues in that region. I am going to different sources and commentators to try to get an overview of the situation. It's inevitable that there are conflicting reports and opinions. What has caused Putin to take such drastic action? Why right now? What does he want? It's worrying and troubling and I feel awful for any innocent people caught in the crossfire.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Dunno if this was mentioned earlier in the thread as I do not want to trawl through the last few pages but a military analyst (Hamish someone) on R5 earlier said that the attack on the maternity hospital yesterday was 1 x 500 pound targeted bomb and that there was no way it was not deliberate.

Given the damage I've seen, thankfully it must have been all but abandoned at the time of the attack given the low number of casualties.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Dunno if this was mentioned earlier in the thread as I do not want to trawl through the last few pages but a military analyst (Hamish someone) on R5 earlier said that the attack on the maternity hospital yesterday was 1 x 500 pound targeted bomb and that there was no way it was not deliberate.

Wrong thread ? This is the one about American Imperialism

 

[pb21]

What has caused Putin to take such drastic action? Why right now? What does he want?

Through your past 3-weeks of research of various sources, what are your opinions on these three questions?

 

[Badger Boy]

Earlier I posted what I thought was an interesting piece by Carlson from Fox News. I understand they have an agenda they have bias. Is he really doing the Kremlin's bidding? Is he on their payroll? I have to be clear, it's only in the last three weeks I have paid much attention to the geopolitical issues in that region. I am going to different sources and commentators to try to get an overview of the situation. It's inevitable that there are conflicting reports and opinions. What has caused Putin to take such drastic action? Why right now? What does he want? It's worrying and troubling and I feel awful for any innocent people caught in the crossfire.

If you find a piece by Tucker Carlson interesting, then you're divorced from reality. The man should be ashamed of himself.

 

[Razzoo]

If you find a piece by Tucker Carlson interesting, then you're divorced from reality. The man should be ashamed of himself.

Tune in to CNN instead?

 

[Eric the meek]

Dunno if this was mentioned earlier in the thread as I do not want to trawl through the last few pages but a military analyst (Hamish someone) on R5 earlier said that the attack on the maternity hospital yesterday was 1 x 500 pound targeted bomb and that there was no way it was not deliberate.

An hour or so ago, I was explaining to my son that it was likely it was a war crime (you don't target hospitals). However, I tempered it with the possibility it was a mistake in that it might not have been deliberate, as I understand that Russian kit is not always as accurate as that of the west.

How naive and forgiving I am.

 

[Badger Boy]

Tune in to CNN instead?

Personally, I would ignore the opinion pieces on Fox because they're hideous. Deliberate misinformation, heavily slanted to a certain point of view and without balance or honesty. The Fox News organisation, whilst also obviously biased, is very good. Their coverage from Ukraine has been excellent, as has CNN's coverage. News organisations are set up for enormous stories and 24/7 interest, which they rarely get. They're getting content now and they're doing a good job with it - but prats like Tucker Carlson really poison the whole network for me.

 

[Razzoo]

Through your past 3-weeks of research of various sources, what are your opinions on these three questions?

I would probably be better off listening to Putin's full speech. (I think he's done two) prior to the invasion. I haven't had the time or inclination yet but I suppose I should have started there. Did you watch them?

 

[pb21]

I would probably be better off listening to Putin's full speech. (I think he's done two) prior to the invasion. I haven't had the time or inclination yet but I suppose I should have started there. Did you watch them?

No, I haven't watched them in full.

Notwithstanding that (not sure how me having seen them, or not, affects your opinion), based on the 3-weeks of research you have done, do you have any opinion on the three questions you have asked, or do you need to watch both of Putin's recent speeches in full first?

 

[Triggaaar]

Earlier I posted what I thought was an interesting piece by Carlson from Fox News.

Yeah, I watched 4 minutes of it and replied to your post. I couldn't bear listening to it, it was so clearly biased nonsense. I'm used to facts being being reported straight, rather than a delivery style that is trying to convince you to agree with their biased opinion. When watching the BBC for example, there are plenty of times when they report what Putin is claiming. They report it straight. There's no comedy laughter and spin. Carlson was unwatchable for me.

I understand they have an agenda they have bias. Is he really doing the Kremlin's bidding? Is he on their payroll?

I imagine their agenda is discrediting Biden, so Trump (or alternative Republican) can win the next election. While I see it as hugely important that we should all be free to state where we disagree with our own governments etc, I don't think a good democracy should allow biased clap-trap like that to be presented under the banner of 'news'. CNN is no doubt guilty too, although in a much less painful to watch way. I am thankful that the news here is so much better.

I have to be clear, it's only in the last three weeks I have paid much attention to the geopolitical issues in that region. I am going to different sources and commentators to try to get an overview of the situation. It's inevitable that there are conflicting reports and opinions.

Although I've been interested in it a lot longer (mostly because I live with a Ukrainian woman), it was only recently I started watching Russia Today (before it was taken off-air). For someone who hasn't been brainwashed over many years (and having access to actual news) it was easy to understand how they operated and their propaganda , but I can see how people in Russia have been fooled.

What has caused Putin to take such drastic action? Why right now? What does he want?

I accept that we don't know all these things for sure, but I think we do have some well educated guesses on a lot of it. Some of the key points:

* Drastic action - we see it as drastic, but he a) doesn't care about lives lost (on either side) to get what he wants, and b) didn't think it would be as difficult as it's turned out: He's been in power for over 2 decades. People in power that long lose a sense of reality and think they're invincible. That is exacerbated by the fact that everyone he's in contact with has to constantly tell him he's amazing (imagine it as like working for Mariah Carey , except you don't lose your job if you forget to tell her how beautiful she is, you lose your life). Even the likes of Thatcher and Blair (who were regularly told by the public that they were crap) got too comfortable in power and started to abuse it. The lies about how great he is will have continued with how easy it would be for Russia to take Ukraine, and how the people there would welcome the liberation.

* What does he want - as much power and control as possible, and certainly any Russian speaking areas, historically Russian linked lands, and any strategically important land (either for military or economy) to be under his control, and ideally part of Russia.

* Why now - because it take time for him to get into the current mindset of being unstoppable, and it's taken earlier expeditions to convince himself that the West would simply stand by and watch. That's what we've done before.

It's worrying and troubling and I feel awful for any innocent people caught in the crossfire.

Of course. And there are millions of them.

 

[Eric the meek]

Tune in to CNN instead?

Well, it's a starting point.

This surely transcends all propaganda. This truth is waaaay stranger than any fiction.

'Sorry to bother you': CNN obtains audio of Russians calling Ukrainian hotline'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-5bAy2En0

Just to be clear. This is a hotline in Kyiv, run by the invaded country, for the wives, girlfriends and mothers of missing invading Russian soldiers, because the invading country doesn't care about them.

Enjoy.

 

[Triggaaar]

An hour or so ago, I was explaining to my son that it was likely it was a war crime (you don't target hospitals). However, I tempered it with the possibility it was a mistake in that it might not have been deliberate, as I understand that Russian kit is not always as accurate as that of the west.

How naive and forgiving I am.

It could have been an accident. It is possible. But it is not possible that all the destruction and killing of civilians is an accident, it is clearly part of the plan.

And if the attack on the hospital was an accident, that's not what the Kremlin are saying. They're saying it was on purpose. They're pretending there were no patients there and that it had been taken over by the military.

 

[peterward]

China are not neutral like they pretend, theyre fully onboard with kremlin propaganda and are parroting the Kremlins lies.

Chinese boycotts and sanctions?

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2022/03/10/china-push-russian-war-disinformation-culver-dnt-ac360-vpx.cnn

 

[portslade seagull]

An hour or so ago, I was explaining to my son that it was likely it was a war crime (you don't target hospitals). However, I tempered it with the possibility it was a mistake in that it might not have been deliberate, as I understand that Russian kit is not always as accurate as that of the west.

How naive and forgiving I am.

You only have to see the way they operated in Syria. They targeted all the hospitals. Probably see it as a way of demoralising any opposition/dissent