[Albion] Possible return of fans to the Amex (incorporating the Q and A forum on 17th August)

[drew]

I sent an email to PB about this yesterday. I have posted the contents and reply below.


Dear Mr Barber.

I have noticed in the information concerning future attendance of the Amex, that one of the conditions of entry will be that we all must have the App live on their phones.
This will present a major problem for the majority of your fans.
The app will only run on the latest version of the IOS. Only a small minority of us have the shiny new IPhone running IOS13.5. The rest of us have older phones that are incapable of accessing this option. I think you will find that a significant number of older members of the population (such as my Father-in-Law) don't even have smartphones at all.
Some of us are not in the financial position to purchase a £1000+ phone just to enable us to attend our club’s matches. I realise that you are not responsible for creating an app that will not run on the vast majority of the population’s hardware.
I am afraid that the government have made a grave error by commissioning the writing of this app and are guilty of using the general public’s money to ostracise most of the people paying for it. I know this is not your fault and that you are trying to follow the guidelines and protect your match goers at the stadium, but if we have no access to one of the main requirements then something is very wrong and very unfair.
I hope you will bring this to the attention of the powers that be because someone needs to shed light on this inequity.

This was the reply.


Thank you for your email.

I haven’t seen any details for the Government’s track and trace app, and neither am I a technology expert, so I’m afraid I am unable to comment.

The club will however be required to follow whatever guidelines are determined by the Government to allow supporters returning to the stadium.

Best wishes, Paul

Understand your concerns but it is a little presumptuous to assume the majority will have that problem. For a start, a lot of people will have android phones. Also, you don't need to have the latest iphone to have the latest operating system. A quick google suggests anyone with an iphone 6s (introduced in 2015) or later can use that IOS.

However, appreciate that doesn't solve the issue of people with much older phones!

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

The Tracing App will only load on IOS 13.5 . If you have a slightly older iPhone you are out of luck.
Also, many of the older generation don't have smartphones at all, they stick to the old button type.

I have an older phone but thankfully supports iOS 13.5. Not sure how long before the phone becomes unsupported. What I do know is that the club could help if they have battery power charging facilities. My phone battery length is appalling.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Understand your concerns but it is a little presumptuous to assume the majority will have that problem. For a start, a lot of people will have android phones. Also, you don't need to have the latest iphone to have the latest operating system. A quick google suggests anyone with an iphone 6s (introduced in 2015) or later can use that IOS.

However, appreciate that doesn't solve the issue of people with much older phones!

Or no phones at all. My 13 year old has one that's better than mine lolol but my 9 year old does not have a phone and we've no plans to get her one until she starts secondary school.

 

[Bozza]

Understand your concerns but it is a little presumptuous to assume the majority will have that problem. For a start, a lot of people will have android phones. Also, you don't need to have the latest iphone to have the latest operating system. A quick google suggests anyone with an iphone 6s (introduced in 2015) or later can use that IOS.

However, appreciate that doesn't solve the issue of people with much older phones!

It's also not practical in the slightest to manually check each fan entering a ground has a specific app installed and operational, even with a reduced capacity.

The time it would take, the proximity required of checker and checkee, and the technical know-how required of the checker would make it completely unworkable.

I guess there could be a technical solution to this - some sort of sensor that verifies this, but that would need to be installed at each entry point of the ground - I just can't see it.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

The Tracing App will only load on IOS 13.5 . If you have a slightly older iPhone you are out of luck.
Also, many of the older generation don't have smartphones at all, they stick to the old button type.

I'm not sure this is correct.

IOS 13.5 does have the contact tracing feature built in, but that does not mean other versions cannot download the stand alone version of the app.

 

[Is it PotG?]

I do not have IOS in any shape or form.

Merely Android 8.0.0

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I do not have IOS in any shape or form.

Merely Android 8.0.0

The app, if it ever appears in the wild, will be compatible with android. 55% of phone users in the UK have android phones so Apple is in the minority.

 

[Springal]

I'm not sure this is correct.

IOS 13.5 does have the contact tracing feature built in, but that does not mean earlier versions cannot download the stand alone version of the app.

Indeed. I think Burnee has jumped the gun a bit there

 

[Weststander]

Not sure if anyone else saw the BBC news or other media yesterday. But there is currently a steady increase in the infection rate and has been for a few days now.
Personally I think we are back to January or early February. Subsequently by early October we could be back into late March early April infection territory.
So fun and games must br put on the back burner and protecting the NHS paramount.

Except, now; We wear face masks, there’s social distancing eg pubs & restaurants, most workers don’t now go to their crowded places of work, commuting and trains in general are quiet, airport passenger numbers are tiny, theatres, gig venues and nightclubs are closed.

Unless there’s mass disobedience by the dim, we shouldn’t see the exponential growth of CV19 in future waves.

 

[carlzeiss]

I have an older phone but thankfully supports iOS 13.5. Not sure how long before the phone becomes unsupported. What I do know is that the club could help if they have battery power charging facilities. My phone battery length is appalling.

I take a STH with Alzheimer's who has paid up front for next season but only has the most basic push button phone and struggles with that .

Looks like he may miss out and not be refunded . By the following season he may well have deteriorated to the point where he won't be able to attend all .

Not the clubs fault I know but a real shame that things have worked out this way .

 

[Uter]

I'm making the first one 1 in 1.16 billion.

Second one is correct though!

Out of curiosity I looked at the distribution for every possible outcome, 0 - 19 successes.

If it was in place ballot was in place for the whole season at the same 30% rate, and every STH applied for every match, they'd be about 1000 unlucky people who were only successful for 2 or fewer matches.

Obviously there are many factors in play here, so it won't pan out like this. But it does demonstrate that a ballot system that takes no account of previous successes or failures can still generate a lot of winners and losers for 19 events, and possibly doesn't even out in the medium term as much as people might instinctively think.

*assuming I got my numbers right.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

I take a STH with Alzheimer's who has paid up front for next season but only has the most basic push button phone and struggles with that .

Looks like he may miss out and not be refunded . By the following season he may well have deteriorated to the point where he won't be able to attend all .

Not the clubs fault I know but a real shame that things have worked out this way .

It's such a tough and sad time. So many differing individual needs with administrative guidelines/practicalities resulting in one size fits all solutions.

 

[Bozza]

Out of curiosity I looked at the distribution for every possible outcome, 0 - 19 successes.

If it was in place ballot was in place for the whole season at the same 30% rate, and every STH applied for every match, they'd be about 1000 unlucky people who were only successful for 2 or fewer matches.

Obviously there are many factors in play here, so it won't pan out like this. But it does demonstrate that a ballot system that takes no account of previous successes or failures can still generate a lot of winners and losers for 19 events, and possibly doesn't even out in the medium term as much as people might instinctively think.

*assuming I got my numbers right.

View attachment 127318

Nice work, but are you working on the basis of 30% of 23,000 will "win" each fixture?

Assuming so, is that correct, since the stadium holds 30,500 (not 23,000), although we don't know what percentage of regular capacity may be permitted as a first stage. If it's 25%, then that boosts the number of "winners" per match from 6,900 to 7,625, ie 33.1% of the 23,000.

 

[Uter]

Nice work, but are you working on the basis of 30% of 23,000 will "win" each fixture?

Assuming so, is that correct, since the stadium holds 30,500 (not 23,000), although we don't know what percentage of regular capacity may be permitted as a first stage. If it's 25%, then that boosts the number of "winners" per match from 6,900 to 7,625, ie 33.1% of the 23,000.

Arrgh. Yes I was.Goddamit! I will recalculate for a different success %. FFS.

 

[Bozza]

Nice work, but are you working on the basis of 30% of 23,000 will "win" each fixture?

Assuming so, is that correct, since the stadium holds 30,500 (not 23,000), although we don't know what percentage of regular capacity may be permitted as a first stage. If it's 25%, then that boosts the number of "winners" per match from 6,900 to 7,625, ie 33.1% of the 23,000.

Ignore me. We also don't know things like...

- Will away fans be permitted? If so how many?
- How many seats are required to allow subs and other club staff to be socially distanced in the vicinity of the dugouts.
- Will extra space be required for media to be more socially distance than they would ordinarily be.
- How many tickets would go to player friends and family.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Information: the negative reciprocal value of probability - Claude Shannon

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

[MENTION=12187]Uter[/MENTION] post above reminds me to get a contingency in place for live football. Seventh tier football and below could be a winner.

 

[Uter]

Nice work, but are you working on the basis of 30% of 23,000 will "win" each fixture?

Assuming so, is that correct, since the stadium holds 30,500 (not 23,000), although we don't know what percentage of regular capacity may be permitted as a first stage. If it's 25%, then that boosts the number of "winners" per match from 6,900 to 7,625, ie 33.1% of the 23,000.

35% success rate:



40% success rate:

 

[Uter]

Ignore me. We also don't know things like...

- Will away fans be permitted? If so how many?
- How many seats are required to allow subs and other club staff to be socially distanced in the vicinity of the dugouts.
- Will extra space be required for media to be more socially distance than they would ordinarily be.
- How many tickets would go to player friends and family.

Yes. A lot of unknowns. Plus it's impossible to know how many people will opt out for each ballot. This obviously boosts your chances.

I was a bit surprised how spread out the distribution is though. This didn't match my gut feeling.

 

[Acker79]

Out of curiosity I looked at the distribution for every possible outcome, 0 - 19 successes.

If it was in place ballot was in place for the whole season at the same 30% rate, and every STH applied for every match, they'd be about 1000 unlucky people who were only successful for 2 or fewer matches.

Obviously there are many factors in play here, so it won't pan out like this. But it does demonstrate that a ballot system that takes no account of previous successes or failures can still generate a lot of winners and losers for 19 events, and possibly doesn't even out in the medium term as much as people might instinctively think.

*assuming I got my numbers right.

View attachment 127318

Are you saying my predicted A* has been downgraded to a C?