O/T Auschwitz

[Racek]

An experience that never leaves you although my wife couldn't face going and I totally understand why in much the same way that I struggle to watch stuff on tv about child brutality - it's not accepting or denying, just a level of despair beyond which you cannot go individually. Auswitch is terrifying but strangely uplifting with the constant reminder that people did come through to bear witness.

Do they have different tours that you can go on or is it just the one? Since I got back I have been looking on youtube and seen that there was a theater amongst other things.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

i went to auschwitz on the most glorious of summer days, and the juxtaposition perhaps softened the realities of the place.

one thing i remember distinctly was the railway lines all over oswiecim, overgrown and hidden to the side of quiet roads.

to me these dormant tracks really hit hard, it made me consider the design of the camp, the location ... if it wasn't a big railway junction it wouldn't have been there.

perhaps it's from watching Schindlers List but the train aspect sends chills down my spine. that they transported people from as far as spain and norway, and that they travelled in via these overgrown railway lines that you can still see in the surrounding neighbourhoods, part-hidden, that aren't part of the museum, that's what got me.

Interesting that a few people have mentioned weather and times of year. We've had stunning weather this week in Germany, but the one bad morning was when we visited the Sachsenhausen camp; overcast, rainy and even thunder and lightning. I am sure these places have the same impact on you regardless, but we certainly thought it was fitting at least.

 

[Racek]

Interesting that a few people have mentioned weather and times of year. We've had stunning weather this week in Germany, but the one bad morning was when we visited the Sachsenhausen camp; overcast, rainy and even thunder and lightning. I am sure these places have the same impact on you regardless, but we certainly thought it was fitting at least.

It was 34 degrees when I went on the weekend. Sure it would be a different experience in the snow or pissing down.

 

[HovaGirl]

Totally agree with you Hovagirl! (hi). Read somewhere today that over 70% of British school kids drop History (apparently allowed to do so) by aged 14! The content of any history that has been taught pre 14 in UK Schools is laughable. Eventually we will have kids becoming adults that believe WW1 was a conspiracy or a story made up by Grandparents.

The loss of History as a core subject is tragic, for it is the history of a nation which forms the basis of its culture and helps it to be a cohesive society. Without knowing about our history, we don't know why our country became like it is or how it changed and developed over time. Without knowing our history, we can't learn to avoid the same mistakes as were made in the past. Without knowing our history, the stories of previous ages will not flow to subsequent generations and they will live in a cultural vacuum. Indeed, that cultural vacuum is already here for some, as they grasp around looking for a peer group to belong to and be proud of. They can't be proud of their country, because they have been persuaded that British history is full of awful events which must be apologised for, that our history is something to be ashamed of. But it is not something to be ashamed of. The history of Britain, particularly of England, is one of progress, when one generation after another built upon the actions of their ancestors, gradually improving the lot of these islands' inhabitants. Our parents, grandparents, and 15x grandparents were there, living, breathing, laughing and crying, just as we do. Do young people today realise their mothers were at Greenham Common or that their grandmothers attended Ban The Bomb marches? Do they realise their great-grandmothers suffered great hardships before 1945, without a benefits system or the National Health Service? Do they realise their great-great-grandfathers died in their millions to preserve the British way of life and stop The Hun during the First World War leaving millions of widows with no money? Do they realise the previous generation had no Trades Unions and that children as young as five worked in the factories and had their hands ripped off through a lack of health and safety, or that their small, underfed brothers were earning a pittance climbing up chimneys to sweep them? And what of the rich, which so many assume were just selfish bastards? What were they doing? They were paying for the building of hospitals and schools, parks and libraries, even whole towns, out of their own money. All those huge old buildings in the middle of our towns and cities were built by people with a conscience, by people who felt they had to give something back to society instead of just creaming off the profits to buy the latest super-yacht.

In the 80s, I was taking a degree with a view to becoming a History teacher and went on observation at schools. I was utterly appalled at what I witnessed. They weren't being taught anything, except how to draw a Tudor Rose and to feign empathy with a factory worker in Russia. It was completely uninspiring. By 1985, much of the history curriculum had already been dumped and the damage done, all because it was feared children couldn't tolerate learning a few dates and a few details about significant people. Those under-educated people are now teaching the children of today. There are so few adults with a reasonable knowledge of our nation's history, that they lack the skills to teach it and the subject is declining even further. If this carries on, there will be a generation of adults who will know nothing of our islands' history and who will have little interest in finding out about it.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

The loss of History as a core subject is tragic, for it is the history of a nation which forms the basis of its culture and helps it to be a cohesive society. Without knowing about our history, we don't know why our country became like it is or how it changed and developed over time. Without knowing our history, we can't learn to avoid the same mistakes as were made in the past. Without knowing our history, the stories of previous ages will not flow to subsequent generations and they will live in a cultural vacuum. Indeed, that cultural vacuum is already here for some, as they grasp around looking for a peer group to belong to and be proud of. They can't be proud of their country, because they have been persuaded that British history is full of awful events which must be apologised for, that our history is something to be ashamed of. But it is not something to be ashamed of. The history of Britain, particularly of England, is one of progress, when one generation after another built upon the actions of their ancestors, gradually improving the lot of these islands' inhabitants. Our parents, grandparents, and 15x grandparents were there, living, breathing, laughing and crying, just as we do. Do young people today realise their mothers were at Greenham Common or that their grandmothers attended Ban The Bomb marches? Do they realise their great-grandmothers suffered great hardships before 1945, without a benefits system or the National Health Service? Do they realise their great-great-grandfathers died in their millions to preserve the British way of life and stop The Hun during the First World War leaving millions of widows with no money? Do they realise the previous generation had no Trades Unions and that children as young as five worked in the factories and had their hands ripped off through a lack of health and safety, or that their small, underfed brothers were earning a pittance climbing up chimneys to sweep them? And what of the rich, which so many assume were just selfish bastards? What were they doing? They were paying for the building of hospitals and schools, parks and libraries, even whole towns, out of their own money. All those huge old buildings in the middle of our towns and cities were built by people with a conscience, by people who felt they had to give something back to society instead of just creaming off the profits to buy the latest super-yacht.

In the 80s, I was taking a degree with a view to becoming a History teacher and went on observation at schools. I was utterly appalled at what I witnessed. They weren't being taught anything, except how to draw a Tudor Rose and to feign empathy with a factory worker in Russia. It was completely uninspiring. By 1985, much of the history curriculum had already been dumped and the damage done, all because it was feared children couldn't tolerate learning a few dates and a few details about significant people. Those under-educated people are now teaching the children of today. There are so few adults with a reasonable knowledge of our nation's history, that they lack the skills to teach it and the subject is declining even further. If this carries on, there will be a generation of adults who will know nothing of our islands' history and who will have little interest in finding out about it.

In answer to the questions in your first paragraph, I would say mostly yes, they do know.

In answer to your second, I understand that that is the perception, but you are talking about 26 years ago now. I agree with you about the importance of history, but don't write off how it is being taught and learned, and the enthusiasm young people show.

 

[HovaGirl]

That I am very aware that the history taught to students up to the age of 14 is generally detailed, thorough and wide-ranging. In particular, most schools devote a lot of time to WW1 and even run trips to the battlefields and cemeteries in Northern France and Belgium which tend to be very popular. So I am politely asking why you think what they are taught is a joke, and how they might not know WW1 happened...

Today's children are learning about the two World Wars but those in the future probably won't. It is 3 years until the centenary of World War I, which is an awful long time ago for the children of today. And it is only 28 years until the centenary of World War II, which will be an awful long time ago for the next generation. As time goes on, events shake the world. We may have our own Great Depression, just 15 years short of the centenary of the last Great Depression, and that is what tomorrow's children will learn about at school, along with The Greeks, The Romans, The Battle of Hastings, Henry VIII and The Arab Spring. Fewer and fewer of them will learn about the wars, until the wars are almost out of memory. (The history taught to students today is nowhere near as detailed as I was taught and, I'll admit, I hated history at school.)

 

[HovaGirl]

Interesting that a few people have mentioned weather and times of year. We've had stunning weather this week in Germany, but the one bad morning was when we visited the Sachsenhausen camp; overcast, rainy and even thunder and lightning. I am sure these places have the same impact on you regardless, but we certainly thought it was fitting at least.

It can get very hot in Poland in the summer. I can't remember the weather when we first went Auschwitz, but the second time, it was raining but cleared up and remained cloudy.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Today's children are learning about the two World Wars but those in the future probably won't. It is 3 years until the centenary of World War I, which is an awful long time ago for the children of today. And it is only 28 years until the centenary of World War II, which will be an awful long time ago for the next generation. As time goes on, events shake the world. We may have our own Great Depression, just 15 years short of the centenary of the last Great Depression, and that is what tomorrow's children will learn about at school, along with The Greeks, The Romans, The Battle of Hastings, Henry VIII and The Arab Spring. Fewer and fewer of them will learn about the wars, until the wars are almost out of memory. (The history taught to students today is nowhere near as detailed as I was taught and, I'll admit, I hated history at school.)

Interesting take. I personally think the 20th Century has played such a role in shaping the world we live in, and is so significant, that it will outlast a lot of the other things you mention in terms of historical content. But who knows...

 

[HovaGirl]

An experience that never leaves you although my wife couldn't face going and I totally understand why in much the same way that I struggle to watch stuff on tv about child brutality - it's not accepting or denying, just a level of despair beyond which you cannot go individually. Auswitch is terrifying but strangely uplifting with the constant reminder that people did come through to bear witness.

Yes, and the survivors who subsequently told their stories just got on with their lives, neither heroes nor victims. Just thankful to be alive.

 

[Gully]

Totally agree with you Hovagirl! (hi). Read somewhere today that over 70% of British school kids drop History (apparently allowed to do so) by aged 14! The content of any history that has been taught pre 14 in UK Schools is laughable. Eventually we will have kids becoming adults that believe WW1 was a conspiracy or a story made up by Grandparents.

I agree with this about history in school, I gave it up at 14 by which time I had gone from the dinosaurs to the battle of Bosworth Field during my time at school. If I had covered 20th century history, or at worst from Victorian times and the Empire, it would probably have meant much more to me and inspired me to take a greater interest in a subject that has shaped not only our country but also those who live in it.

My tip, if you can't make it all the way to Poland (I haven't yet) is to visit the Anne Frank Huis in Amsterdam, it covers that shameful period in European history in a succinct and informative manner that leaves a long lasting impression on whoever visits.

I would echo the comments above about those who deny the holocaust, what planet are they living on?

Oh, and a tip I got from someone on NSC, read the book "if this is a man" by Primo Levi, possibly the best book I have ever read, about his experiences in Auschwitz.

 

[Racek]

I went around Anne Franks as well. Very interesting but not as harrowing as Auschwitz which as still left me with a strange feeling in my stomach.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

I agree with this about history in school, I gave it up at 14 by which time I had gone from the dinosaurs to the battle of Bosworth Field during my time at school. If I had covered 20th century history, or at worst from Victorian times and the Empire, it would probably have meant much more to me and inspired me to take a greater interest in a subject that has shaped not only our country but also those who live in it.

Can I ask how old you are Gully? That sounds like an appalling (and dull) course of history!

 

[HovaGirl]

In answer to the questions in your first paragraph, I would say mostly yes, they do know.

In answer to your second, I understand that that is the perception, but you are talking about 26 years ago now. I agree with you about the importance of history, but don't write off how it is being taught and learned, and the enthusiasm young people show.

The young people who have chosen history do so because they like it, and will naturally show some enthusiasm. But today we read a report that only 30% of students are taking History, and that in 159 school, none are taking it. When I was on observation, the teacher I was shadowing told me not to be surprised at the low numbers in her class. She said she would rather let the uninterested smoke behind the bike sheds than disrupt the rest of the class who did want to be in the History class.

My observation was 26 years ago. Ten years later, my own children were learning History and it was laughable. They weren't learning History, but Historiography, which is something for University once the basic high points in our history (and that of Europe and the ancient world) have been learnt. History is absolutely vital for a cohesive society and I believe all students should take it at GCSE, perhaps in the same manner as Science, with a divided paper for the more able or the less interested.

 

[Gully]

Can I ask how old you are Gully? That sounds like an appalling (and dull) course of history!

Mid 40's. You are right, it was totally uninspirational and left little or no mark whatsoever on my memory, I was glad to drop the subject at the earliest opportunity. Maybe that was down to the teachers failing to inspire me or just the dryness of the subject, or more likely a mixture of the two. The only good bit was the Roman Empire and Battle of Hastings as I could see evidence of it near where I grew up and it seemed particularly relevant. That seems to be the crux of the matter, if you can make it interesting and relevant then kids will often want to learn about it.

 

[HovaGirl]

Interesting take. I personally think the 20th Century has played such a role in shaping the world we live in, and is so significant, that it will outlast a lot of the other things you mention in terms of historical content. But who knows...

I think the 20th Century over-estimates the value its own impact. Until the 20thC, history was about progress. During the 20thC, it was about increasing personal isolation and profit. People stayed home more watching their TVs and playing their computers, speaking on telephones and mobiles, rather than visiting their families or neighbours or writing them letters. This impacted on the community, which became increasingly less cohesive. They drove their cars speedily along motorways, locked in their own mobile musical box without a thought towards the world outside their rush to get where they were going. They worry about the most trivial things, whether their kitchen is modern enough or whether they have the best trainers rather than where the next meal is coming from or what to do if little Johnny gets sick. In one way, they have too much to worry about because they have information overload: the poor starving in Africa; uprisings in the Middle East; the head of Apple giving up his job; whether Sven will marry Nancy; where David will find a gap to put his next tattoo. And yet, this is because they have too little to worry about: they can ring up the doctor, make an appointment, see him and go to hospital and have an expensive operation without paying a penny; if they lose their job or their home, the State will sort them out. If they have an accident or drop their telly, they can sue someone. People actually need to be concerned about the minutae of their own lives to help them understand how to live it. They do not need to worry about the lives of everyone else on the rest of the planet as well.

 

[User removed 4]

i went to auschwitz on the most glorious of summer days, and the juxtaposition perhaps softened the realities of the place.

one thing i remember distinctly was the railway lines all over oswiecim, overgrown and hidden to the side of quiet roads.

to me these dormant tracks really hit hard, it made me consider the design of the camp, the location ... if it wasn't a big railway junction it wouldn't have been there.

perhaps it's from watching Schindlers List but the train aspect sends chills down my spine. that they transported people from as far as spain and norway, and that they travelled in via these overgrown railway lines that you can still see in the surrounding neighbourhoods, part-hidden, that aren't part of the museum, that's what got me.

Spain ?? Are you sure ?

 

[User removed 4]

Can I ask how old you are Gully? That sounds like an appalling (and dull) course of history!

The O level history course I took was " british economic and social history since the 17th century" I found it appallingly boring and would much rather have taken another course covering general british history.

 

[The Auctioneer]

Trouble with History, it's all been done before.

 

[looney]

Anyone visited Soviet Gulags? Or Serbian camps from the Balken conflict?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Anyone visited Soviet Gulags?

Siberia isn't quite as handy as Poland or Germany!