O/T A Few Good Men event - campaign for more male nursery workers and teachers

[tedebear]

It's a sad state of affairs when poxy gender wars based on spurious and misguided stereotypes have to take place in something so significant as a child's development.

But why start the gender war?

Women have children, we raise children and personally I (with a good deal of help from my fantastic husband) do it pretty darn well I hope. (I have a happy well behaved, contented nearly 4 year old).

Why is it so abhorrent in this day and age to allow ourselves to say men are hunter gatherers and women raise families? I'm no feminist and frankly some feminist ideals come from family lazy women with bratty children!

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

As long as motherhood is used as the main template for how to be with children, then it's very hard to increase the numbers of men interested in working in nurseries and very hard to see them as being as good as women at that mothering role. Unless, they are prepared to cut their balls off, that is.

When I began working in a nursery, as a man I had to mould a new way of being with children that was true to who I was. I get the sense that's what all men who work in nurseries have to do too, and the 'A Few Good Men' event is partly about that. I have no desire to out-female a female. Instead, I drew upon my own experiences growing up as a boy and listened carefully to what children at my setting wanted and used a 'playful playworker' as my template. That means I get into children's imaginative world much more than my female colleagues tend to do, I'm much more accepting of superhero play, and understand that making toy weapons wont mean children will turn into psychopaths.

This isn't to say that I'm in any way 'better', just that men and women bring a different vibe and personal history, skills, outlook etc to nurseries and each can be respected for what they are and what they're not. At the moment the ratio between men and women in nurseries is 1 to 99. Children are missing out when the ratio is so skewed. Men miss out on a satisfying career that is deemed not for them. And, if any women are troubled by men muscling in on 'their' domain, I would also add that women miss out if in society, the responsibility of caring for children is not shared out with others. In families, it would free them to do other things.

 

[magoo]

Anyone surveyed the kids? I think you'll find that under 5's would prefer women. Women are better at skinned knees, hugs, cuddles and personally I think you'd have serious questions to answer if you found men teachers having to change pants and nappies at nursery...

School however I agree - more men would be great - especially music teachers and sports teachers, far better as men!!...go for it I say...

Sorry but that kind of generalisation is the sort of attitude that prevents men going into this line of work. Your theories have no evidence.

Why would an under 5 prefer a female carer as long as they are considerate, compassionate and caring? I'd say most children would barely notice the difference between a man and a woman if he had these traits.

And yes, there are even men who aren't squeemish about cleaning kids up.

 

[tedebear]

Sorry but that kind of generalisation is the sort of attitude that prevents men going into this line of work. Your theories have no evidence.

Why would an under 5 prefer a female carer as long as they are considerate, compassionate and caring? I'd say most children would barely notice the difference between a man and a woman if he had these traits.

And yes, there are even men who aren't squeemish about cleaning kids up.

It certainly is a generalisation - in general women are better at nursery (under 5 care). I certainly doubt it prevents men from going into that line of work, you survey 100 men and find out honestly how many would like to work in a nursery from 8 - 6 5 days a week? Of course you are going to find a few who do - and thats great, but in general its women.

Someone else mentioned subsequently that men can't probably afford to work in a nursery anyhow - if they are supposed to be paying a mortgage etc...

There are exceptions to everything, but for under 5's women on the whole are better.

 

[teaboy]

But why start the gender war?

Women have children, we raise children and personally I (with a good deal of help from my fantastic husband) do it pretty darn well I hope. (I have a happy well behaved, contented nearly 4 year old).

Why is it so abhorrent in this day and age to allow ourselves to say men are hunter gatherers and women raise families? I'm no feminist and frankly some feminist ideals come from family lazy women with bratty children!

In that case what's the need for nurseries at all? Women can stay at home and look after the child THEY chose to have, not palm it off on others so they can 'have a life' too.

 

[London Calling]

Few men want to work in nurseries, but that is the point of the campaign?

Also boys need men, they need the role model, they need to relate to men, and the men to understand them. And at our nursery, the men are just as good as doing the caring as the women, they can do the craft stuff as well, the footies as well.

Funny that, the men and are just as good as the women?

Also strange that the centre is a community, not for profit nursery and all the key posts are held by women.

Salaries are also another key issue. Nursery staff are traditionally poorly paid - women's wages.

Possibly one of our most imporrtant jobs in a caring society and we pay peanuts.

I wonder what the Swedes and Danes do?

 

[The Large One]

This is an interesting debate, and I showed the nature of the campaign to my partner, who is who has run her own school for 2-9 year-olds for the past 25 years, and she is very interested in it. She may well get in touch...

There are exceptions to everything, but for under 5's women on the whole are better.

... and with that in mind, she fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

 

[tedebear]

This is an interesting debate, and I showed the nature of the campaign to my partner, who is who has run her own school for 2-9 year-olds for the past 25 years, and she is very interested in it. She may well get in touch...



... and with that in mind, she fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

She can disagree all she likes, but on the whole women have been carers for under 5's in the majority of cases since the year dot, because on the whole they are better at it, it wouldn't be this way if they weren't. We as a society wouldn't allow it if women weren't would we?

There are obviously some exceptions to this, your wife will obviously point some out (she isn't in main stream schooling/nursery either though is she..) but asides the exceptionally few men, women are better at it, again I stress I'm talking about nursery years...

 

[The Large One]

She can disagree all she likes, but on the whole women have been carers for under 5's in the majority of cases since the year dot, because on the whole they are better at it, it wouldn't be this way if they weren't. We as a society wouldn't allow it if women weren't would we?

There are obviously some exceptions to this, your wife will obviously point some out (she isn't in main stream schooling/nursery either though is she..) but asides the exceptionally few men, women are better at it.

Like others have said - a prejudiced view. Thankfully, my partner doesn't take that view, nor can she or anyone else who takes pre-school education seriously afford to.

And the fact she is not in 'mainstream' is completely irrelevant.

 

[tedebear]

Like others have said - a prejudiced view. Thankfully, my partner doesn't take that view, nor can she or anyone else who takes pre-school education seriously afford to.

And the fact she is not in 'mainstream' is completely irrelevant.

How can it be prejudiced when it is fact, if it wasn't the case society would be up in arms.

In effect you and your partner are stating that you would rather 99 out of 100 nursery workers be male? That women are not doing it better and should be on the whole replaced? How odd...

I'm exceptionally offended you think I don't take my sons pre-school eduction seriously, and your "better than thou" view on education is exactly why I pointed out that you are not mainstream. You would be in mainstream if you didn't think what you did was better...

I find all your arguments odd, women are the main carers under 5, they are better at it in most circumstances, so why rile against it? There are some exceptional men who can do it too, and possibly this program will serve to attract some of them that haven't thought about it before. But really I'm not saying anything other than what is currently happening..

 

[The Large One]

How can it be prejudiced when it is fact, if it wasn't the case society would be up in arms.

In effect you and your partner are stating that you would rather 99 out of 100 nursery workers be male? That women are not doing it better and should be on the whole replaced? How odd...

I'm exceptionally offended you think I don't take my sons pre-school eduction seriously, and your "better than thou" view on education is exactly why I pointed out that you are not mainstream. You would be in mainstream if you didn't think what you did was better...

I find all your arguments odd, women are the main carers under 5, they are better at it in most circumstances, so why rile against it? There are some exceptional men who can do it too, and possibly this program will serve to attract some of them that haven't thought about it before. But really I'm not saying anything other than what is currently happening..

I can't debate what is otherwise a very interesting subject with someone who has such a prejudicial attitude, so I'm going to leave you to stew in it, with one exception...

The bit I've emboldened is covered from head to foot in utter prejudicial - that word again - bullshit. Total and utter bollocks.

 

[DIFFBROOK]

Tedebear, I do find your comments very prejudiced. Infact, if men used the arguments as to why women shouldn't be fireman etc you would find women up in arms about it.

As it happens, I think men can be just as good providers of care to children of all ages as women provide. Just 'cos women have tended to do this role over centuries, doesn't mean that men shouldn't.

I think men can give just as good care, albeit differently than men. Children of all ges need men as role models.

Your sentence "I think you'd have serious questions to answer if you found men teachers having to change pants and nappies at nursery..." Why would this be the case? If its part of the job, it needs to be carried out.

A number of men, do not volunteer for these roles, because of yours and others prejudice. Not all men are paedo's ( infact very very very few are), but thats how some of them are viewed if they fancy doing this work.

I volunteer as an independent visitor for looked after children. Very few men volunteer for that. We are in danger of having children who never interact with men. They lose out on role models and can possibly view men as dangerous.

So sorry Tedebear, I think your views are very prejudiced and really shouldn't be tolerated intodays very unequal society......and unequal I mean on mens side.


To the poster, very best of luck. If I lived in Brighton, I would defo enquire further

 

[magoo]

tedebear, i think i understand what you're saying but you can't try and press your own opinion as fact and completely ignore the opinion of a woman that's been in the business for 25 years. As i said before it really is that sort of prejudiced view that keeps men out of the child care industry. Whereas before it would have been seen as 'womens work' or too poorly paid, now it's seen as 'dodgy' if a man wants to care for children. I know that's not what you said but that's the general public feeling thanks to our careless gutter press.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that it's always been women in the child care industry therefore they must be better, but would it not be fair to say that child care is a female dominated area because once upon a time, when leaving school it was seen as the 'easy option' for girls? Minimal qualifications were required...

 

[Jahooli]

No absolutely no prejudice at all. I think bad choice of words there?

Prejudice:an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand OR without knowledge, thought, or reason.

My "opinion" is formed by my continual thoughts about my sons happieness and wellbeing.

I trust my husband implicitly, but I know that as a female I am more tolerant, more understanding, better at listening, easier to understand frustration. And whilst this doesn't apply to all women, it applies to far greater numbers of to women than men.

QUOTE]

There's nothing to say you haven't had experience of it, thought about it or have your own reasons to think it but you're kidding yourself when you claim there's "absolutely no prejudice at all". Lots of good people are prejudiced, if for once they admitted it and tried dealing with it honestly maybe things would improve more quickly than they are and I do think that they are improving slowly.
I am guilty of it too by the way, to be honest, I would prefer and trust a woman to look after my children over a man, I can't help it but that makes my view prejudiced in my opinion but having said that I'd like to see more men involved and let the children have a chance to know a positive male role model.
There needs to be more men involved in the earlier stages of children's development, that doesn't mean I think men are better it means I think there are too few right now.

 

[Gwylan]

She can disagree all she likes, but on the whole women have been carers for under 5's in the majority of cases since the year dot, because on the whole they are better at it, it wouldn't be this way if they weren't.

You could have used that argument in 1919 to say that women shouldn't be given the vote as men have made all decisions since the year dot - come to think of it, a lot of people did.

I don't think that because something's been done a particular way for a long time, that means that it shouldn't change. We should look at whether there's a benefit in that change,

I don't think anyone's saying that men are better at childcare or that nurseries/infant schools should be dominated by men; this is all about improving the male representation in these places.

If I were younger, I'd certainly be interested in primary education as a career. I'd love to see more men involved in pre and early school education.

 

[Tony Meolas Loan Spell]

When my daughter was at Pumpkin Patch nursery there was a male teacher called Tom. Great bloke he was and all the kids were so sad when he left to go to another one - not sure where think it was London.

Kids absolutely loved him, parents liked him too because it was different from the "female orientated" classes.

Speaking as a parent and a man (steady Alan) I have no problem with cut knees, changing nappies etc etc

 

[tedebear]

I can't debate what is otherwise a very interesting subject with someone who has such a prejudicial attitude, so I'm going to leave you to stew in it, with one exception...

The bit I've emboldened is covered from head to foot in utter prejudicial - that word again - bullshit. Total and utter bollocks.

 

[tedebear]

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that it's always been women in the child care industry therefore they must be better, but would it not be fair to say that child care is a female dominated area because once upon a time, when leaving school it was seen as the 'easy option' for girls? Minimal qualifications were required...

Possibly, but is it so wrong to assume that the fairer sex in general is caring for our younger years because they are better at it?

If the men are that good at it why aren't they queueing up to join, where are they?

 

[The Large One]

So... prejudicial AND ignorant.

Come back when you can tell me about Montessori education in Brighton, and how it fits in socially and politically in the city, and what its value is to education as a whole, rather than the overly facile and hopelessly ignorant 'if it was any good it would be in the mainstream'.

 

[tedebear]

I don't think that because something's been done a particular way for a long time, that means that it shouldn't change. We should look at whether there's a benefit in that change

Thats a very valid point indeed.