Norman Kember freed

[jonogulls]

Have you ever been in the firing line of anything more dangerous than a flying champagne cork?

I love how people can go off on a tangent, on a subject so unrelated to what we're actually discussing, and then actually claim to be making a valid argument when they're actually talking shit.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Sorry, you must have mistaken me for someone who was in the least bit concerned.

 

[Bry Nylon]

I love how people can go off on a tangent, on a subject so unrelated to what we're actually discussing

sorry .. what were we actually discussing?

 

[jonogulls]

sorry .. what were we actually discussing?

Nothing to do with LI's champagne drinking skills anyway.

 

[Collar Feeler]

How reassuring to know that you could be policing anti-war demonstrations in Sussex

And you think you'd thoroughly research the facts rather than just glance at a few newspaper reports before coming out with a load of chav insults directed at the old geezer. Shoot first and ask questions later, eh?

I'm entitled to my opinion as are you, I have no intention of commenting on my job as it has no involvement in this post whatsoever, suffice to say that your snap judgement of me and what kind of police officer I may be and how I would police an anti war demo based on the content and comments in this one post are laughable.

So everyone on NSC thoroughly researches 'facts' prior to posting do they? And you feel I should do you? just because I happen to be a copper? Well bollocks to that mate, I come on here and post just like everyone else. Get off your moral high horse! I don't studiously research every aspect of any given post before I post, neither does anyone else.

So I think Kember is a Daft old Twat, big deal! It has nothing to do with me being a copper. That opinion isn't formed by my reading of a few headlines or watching the TV news. Whilst his motives for going to Iraq may well have been admirable and according to his beliefs I happen to feel he was a fool for going there. Should I have sympathy with him just because he got kidnapped by terrorists? Well I don't, he made that choice and it would have been made quite clear to him that the risks of him being kidnapped and taken hostage were extremely high. He was unlucky and as a western hostage got loads of prime time coverage about his plight. I have more sympathy and concern over the 40-60 Iraqi citizens, including many women & children, who get kidnapped under similar circumstances every day! What coverage do they get, how do their families cope? Of course, the TV and newspapers aren't interested in them since they aren't White Peace Activists on a mission from God. Of course, I'd better check my facts on that last bit since I may be wrong, I'll get onto Reuters right now.

 

[Bry Nylon]

I'm entitled to my opinion as are you, I have no intention of commenting on my job as it has no involvement in this post whatsoever, suffice to say that your snap judgement of me and what kind of police officer I may be and how I would police an anti war demo based on the content and comments in this one post are laughable.

So everyone on NSC thoroughly researches 'facts' prior to posting do they? And you feel I should do you? just because I happen to be a copper? Well bollocks to that mate, I come on here and post just like everyone else. Get off your moral high horse! I don't studiously research every aspect of any given post before I post, neither does anyone else.

So I think Kember is a Daft old Twat, big deal! It has nothing to do with me being a copper. That opinion isn't formed by my reading of a few headlines or watching the TV news. Whilst his motives for going to Iraq may well have been admirable and according to his beliefs I happen to feel he was a fool for going there. Should I have sympathy with him just because he got kidnapped by terrorists? Well I don't, he made that choice and it would have been made quite clear to him that the risks of him being kidnapped and taken hostage were extremely high. He was unlucky and as a western hostage got loads of prime time coverage about his plight. I have more sympathy and concern over the 40-60 Iraqi citizens, including many women & children, who get kidnapped under similar circumstances every day! What coverage do they get, how do their families cope? Of course, the TV and newspapers aren't interested in them since they aren't White Peace Activists on a mission from God. Of course, I'd better check my facts on that last bit since I may be wrong, I'll get onto Reuters right now.

Great post. Knocks my "champagne" jibe into a cocked hat.

 

[jonogulls]

Great post. Knocks my "champagne" jibe into a cocked hat.

Was it supposed to be a jibe?!

 

[London Irish]

I'm entitled to my opinion as are you, I have no intention of commenting on my job as it has no involvement in this post whatsoever, suffice to say that your snap judgement of me and what kind of police officer I may be and how I would police an anti war demo based on the content and comments in this one post are laughable.

So everyone on NSC thoroughly researches 'facts' prior to posting do they? And you feel I should do you? just because I happen to be a copper? Well bollocks to that mate, I come on here and post just like everyone else. Get off your moral high horse! I don't studiously research every aspect of any given post before I post, neither does anyone else.

So I think Kember is a Daft old Twat, big deal! It has nothing to do with me being a copper. That opinion isn't formed by my reading of a few headlines or watching the TV news. Whilst his motives for going to Iraq may well have been admirable and according to his beliefs I happen to feel he was a fool for going there. Should I have sympathy with him just because he got kidnapped by terrorists? Well I don't, he made that choice and it would have been made quite clear to him that the risks of him being kidnapped and taken hostage were extremely high. He was unlucky and as a western hostage got loads of prime time coverage about his plight. I have more sympathy and concern over the 40-60 Iraqi citizens, including many women & children, who get kidnapped under similar circumstances every day! What coverage do they get, how do their families cope? Of course, the TV and newspapers aren't interested in them since they aren't White Peace Activists on a mission from God. Of course, I'd better check my facts on that last bit since I may be wrong, I'll get onto Reuters right now.

Well, I think you are admitting your real reason for disliking the bloke, you don't like western peace activists going to Iraq, in fact I'm willing to bet you don't like western peace activists, period. It's nothing to do with this codswallop that you tried to hang on him that he didn't "thank" the guys who released him - how the hell do you know what he actually said to those guys? But just smear him anyway by saying that, because - for all the reasons you listed above - you don't like western peace activists. Poor.

No - not everyone researches facts on NSC before coming out with stupid statements. That's a bad thing by the way, you don't have to join in and be proud to add to the moronity on this website.

I mentioned you job because I thought recently you spoke quite well on an NSC thread started by Jonogulls trying to break down some tired old stereotypes about coppers. But here you go now trying to build 'em all back up again.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Well, I think you are admitting your real reason for disliking the bloke, you don't like western peace activists going to Iraq, in fact I'm willing to bet you don't like western peace activists, period. It's nothing to do with this codswallop that you tried to hang on him that he didn't "thank" the guys who released him - how the hell do you know what he actually said to those guys? But just smear him anyway by saying that, because - for all the reasons you listed above - you don't like western peace activists. Poor.

No - not everyone researches facts on NSC before coming out with stupid statements. That's a bad thing by the way, you don't have to join in and be proud to add to the moronity on this website.

I mentioned you job because I thought recently you spoke quite well on an NSC thread started by Jonogulls trying to break down some tired old stereotypes about coppers. But here you go now trying to build 'em all back up again.

If the Government had had the foresight to offer a hostage exchange: Kember for London Irish, the insurgency would have dissolved within seconds.

 

[jonogulls]

If the Government had had the foresight to offer a hostage exchange: Kember for London Irish, the insurgency would have dissolved within seconds.

What an insult.

 

[Collar Feeler]

You complete twat. Do you actually know what you are talking about? Obviously NOT. Have you any idea how many Moslems supported what they were doing - not only there but in many other danger zones around the world? Even Hamas appreciate what they are doing. Next time, engage the brain cells before hitting the keys.

You're absolutely correct, I have no idea what I am talking about. I read a bit of their website, saw their mission statement and a few other bits and pieces then came back here to give my hopelessly misguided opinion. I'm sure they are doing stirling work but personally feel that sending a Strongly Belief based so called Christian Peacemaking team into an already f***ed up religious quagmire is just going to do as much harm as it will good. Sure you may well be able to evidence some of the good work they do but the very fact that its members are being taken hostage is also evidence that some factions in Iraq do not want them there. Now that could be for any number of reasons but it's hardly generating much hope that they are spreading peace to Iraq is it?

Maybe if these Peacemaking teams, Bush, Blair and the troops, and every other interfering western nation and group got out of Iraq they might just find some kind of peace themselves.

 

[NMH]

The news in the US is saying that the American lad was killed in his escape attempt. Extra tragic, because a couple of weeks later and he would be alive and free.

 

[Collar Feeler]

Well, I think you are admitting your real reason for disliking the bloke, you don't like western peace activists going to Iraq, in fact I'm willing to bet you don't like western peace activists, period. It's nothing to do with this codswallop that you tried to hang on him that he didn't "thank" the guys who released him - how the hell do you know what he actually said to those guys? But just smear him anyway by saying that, because - for all the reasons you listed above - you don't like western peace activists. Poor.

No - not everyone researches facts on NSC before coming out with stupid statements. That's a bad thing by the way, you don't have to join in and be proud to add to the moronity on this website.

I mentioned you job because I thought recently you spoke quite well on an NSC thread started by Jonogulls trying to break down some tired old stereotypes about coppers. But here you go now trying to build 'em all back up again.

L Irish,

Rather than those being my reasons, you are thoroughly into the realms of assumption there! I have nothing against Peace Activists but certainly do have issues with Extremely religious almost sect like Peace Activists which CPT appear to me to be. No doubt I will be flamed and abused for that comment but that's how I see it.

Appreciate why you mentioned the job, point taken. Every copper like every person has likes and dislikes, prejudices and faults, the key is not to let them influence your work. So If I was confronted by an Anti-War demo consisting of Religious Peace Activists would it make me a bad copper for not liking them No, it would make me a bad copper if I acted or did anything in any way that was contrary to how I would act or treat any other person. And that my friend is the most demanding and hardest part of the job, admitting what your predjudices and faults are and NOT acting upon them. It is also the most satisfying part when you do the right thing and don't react. As the advert says, 'Could you?'.

I guess the question is can I guarantee that I wouldn't react or treat them differently? I don't think anyone can make such a guarantee against their innermost inbuilt and pre-programmed beliefs and feelings and I suppose only I know the answer for me personally. Put it this way, I'm happy with who I am and am proud to say have not had a single complaint about my conduct or behaviour in over 4 years, and there are plenty of people and groups out there that I dislike!

 

[Juan Albion]

You're absolutely correct, I have no idea what I am talking about. I read a bit of their website, saw their mission statement and a few other bits and pieces then came back here to give my hopelessly misguided opinion.

It's a shame that you either didn't read a bit more or understand what you did read otherwise you wouldn't be so way off the mark.

You came out with the ridiculously stereotypical comment of "Lets send a bunch of devout Christians spouting the Gospel and God & Jesus' truth and love into the hellsfire of Iraq." That may fit with some ill-informed view of Christian mission based on the occasional episode of East Enders but has little relation to reality. What they say very clearly on their website is:

"Is CPT a missionary organization?
NO. CPT is a peacemaking organization focussed on reducing violence and protecting human rights in conflict zones. CPT does not participate in any missionary activities. Christian Peacemaker Teams was founded in 1984 by three historic peace churches, Mennonite, Church of the Brethren and Quaker, and now enjoys support and membership from a wide range of Christian denominations, including Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians. While CPTers have chosen to follow Jesus Christ, they do not proselytize."

Hardly Christians spouting the Gospel!

I very much doubt that they even mentioned Christ to anyone who didn't specifically ask them, and even then they would have been reluctant. They weren't there to convert anyone, they were there to bring peace and social justice. Most of their work seems to have been concerned with ensuring representation and fair treatment for prisoners. You know, those things we have as a right and take for granted.

As for your other comment about the fact they were kidnapped proving how they were not welcome, perhaps you simply aren't aware that they have said they were held by criminals seeking money, not 'terrorists' or 'religious fanatics.' Nothing to do with the fact they were Christians, everything to do with the fact they were Westerners, and so deemed very marketable. On the contrary, their release was called for by many Muslim bodies both within Iraq and outside, including as has been said, Hamas.

 

[London Irish]

Every copper like every person has likes and dislikes, prejudices and faults, the key is not to let them influence your work. So If I was confronted by an Anti-War demo consisting of Religious Peace Activists would it make me a bad copper for not liking them No, it would make me a bad copper if I acted or did anything in any way that was contrary to how I would act or treat any other person. And that my friend is the most demanding and hardest part of the job, admitting what your predjudices and faults are and NOT acting upon them. It is also the most satisfying part when you do the right thing and don't react. As the advert says, 'Could you?'.

OK, it's a fair cop, I'm disarmed by your reasonableness here, I'm coming quietly

The argument you put, above quoted, I think is strong, well-constructed and persuasive.

Yes, you are allowed your prejudices like everyone else, but I guess like everyone else you are going to be called on them if voiced out loud. I didn't think you were being fair to Kember earlier in believing hearsay comments about him, but you've had your say on that and I've had mine, so there it is - interesting discussion as it's turned out.

 

[Collar Feeler]

It's a shame that you either didn't read a bit more or understand what you did read otherwise you wouldn't be so way off the mark.

You came out with the ridiculously stereotypical comment of "Lets send a bunch of devout Christians spouting the Gospel and God & Jesus' truth and love into the hellsfire of Iraq." That may fit with some ill-informed view of Christian mission based on the occasional episode of East Enders but has little relation to reality. What they say very clearly on their website is:

"Is CPT a missionary organization?
NO. CPT is a peacemaking organization focussed on reducing violence and protecting human rights in conflict zones. CPT does not participate in any missionary activities. Christian Peacemaker Teams was founded in 1984 by three historic peace churches, Mennonite, Church of the Brethren and Quaker, and now enjoys support and membership from a wide range of Christian denominations, including Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians. While CPTers have chosen to follow Jesus Christ, they do not proselytize."

Hardly Christians spouting the Gospel!

I very much doubt that they even mentioned Christ to anyone who didn't specifically ask them, and even then they would have been reluctant. They weren't there to convert anyone, they were there to bring peace and social justice. Most of their work seems to have been concerned with ensuring representation and fair treatment for prisoners. You know, those things we have as a right and take for granted.

As for your other comment about the fact they were kidnapped proving how they were not welcome, perhaps you simply aren't aware that they have said they were held by criminals seeking money, not 'terrorists' or 'religious fanatics.' Nothing to do with the fact they were Christians, everything to do with the fact they were Westerners, and so deemed very marketable. On the contrary, their release was called for by many Muslim bodies both within Iraq and outside, including as has been said, Hamas.

They also state on their website:. "In some ways we may be very different, but in our humanness and inability to do what is needed in every setting where we face violence, we are much like other groups. Participants in CPT are Christians. Teams engage in regular spiritual reflection. Public and private prayer is emphasized. In selected situations being Christian is a clear advantage. For example, in Muslim areas the Christian nature of CPT helps to create confidence because of a shared sense of monotheism. There is a continuity to our witness reaching back to the age of the Old Testament prophets. We intend for our work to connect to the ministry of Jesus and the early church through early Anabaptism in the period of the reformation and Quaker reform work. There is a consistent tendency for organized religion to make "calculated" alliances with the state, as it often did during the age of imperialism. Christians can be free of worldly confinements and eager to witness for truth in difficult times and dangerous places. The original CPT vision called for 100,000 peacemakers. By moving ahead one step at a time we believe that is possible."

But they aren't missionaries though! Certainly sound like they are to me.

As for his kidnappers being just money grabbing criminals, who knows you may be right I thinks it's a moot point. Equally I found this written about them that quite clearly states they are terrorists -

The Swords of Righteousness Brigade (sometimes translated as the Swords of Truth Brigade) is a terrorist group who kidnapped four Western peace activists in Iraq on 26 November 2005, apparently murdered one, and held the remaining three hostage until March 22, 2006, when coalition forces raided the place where the hostages were held.

The group was unknown prior to this kidnapping. However, the U.S.-based SITE Institute, a terrorism research organization, said that it had found ties between the Swords of Righteousness Brigade and the Islamic Army in Iraq.

Anyway, As L Irish says we've all had our say I just don't feel that my opinion is any less valid just because you don't agree with it. I will finish by saying that whilst many people couldn't do the job i do, I don't think I would have the balls to do what Kember did so fair play to him on that.

 

[eastlondonseagull]

It's a shame that you either didn't read a bit more or understand what you did read otherwise you wouldn't be so way off the mark.

You came out with the ridiculously stereotypical comment of "Lets send a bunch of devout Christians spouting the Gospel and God & Jesus' truth and love into the hellsfire of Iraq." That may fit with some ill-informed view of Christian mission based on the occasional episode of East Enders but has little relation to reality. What they say very clearly on their website is:

"Is CPT a missionary organization?
NO. CPT is a peacemaking organization focussed on reducing violence and protecting human rights in conflict zones. CPT does not participate in any missionary activities. Christian Peacemaker Teams was founded in 1984 by three historic peace churches, Mennonite, Church of the Brethren and Quaker, and now enjoys support and membership from a wide range of Christian denominations, including Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians. While CPTers have chosen to follow Jesus Christ, they do not proselytize."

Hardly Christians spouting the Gospel!

I very much doubt that they even mentioned Christ to anyone who didn't specifically ask them, and even then they would have been reluctant. They weren't there to convert anyone, they were there to bring peace and social justice. Most of their work seems to have been concerned with ensuring representation and fair treatment for prisoners. You know, those things we have as a right and take for granted.

As for your other comment about the fact they were kidnapped proving how they were not welcome, perhaps you simply aren't aware that they have said they were held by criminals seeking money, not 'terrorists' or 'religious fanatics.' Nothing to do with the fact they were Christians, everything to do with the fact they were Westerners, and so deemed very marketable. On the contrary, their release was called for by many Muslim bodies both within Iraq and outside, including as has been said, Hamas.

Absolutely JA

Christian Aid, likewise, is Christian by name only when it comes to working in war zones etc etc. When all the peace organisations were thrown out of Afghanistan by the Taliban because a stupid bunch of Yank missionaries said they'd only give aid if they could also give Bibles, Christian Aid were allowed back in, precisely because the Taliban knew they didn't try to convert anyone.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's a shame that you either didn't read a bit more or understand what you did read otherwise you wouldn't be so way off the mark.

You came out with the ridiculously stereotypical comment of "Lets send a bunch of devout Christians spouting the Gospel and God & Jesus' truth and love into the hellsfire of Iraq." That may fit with some ill-informed view of Christian mission based on the occasional episode of East Enders but has little relation to reality. What they say very clearly on their website is:

"Is CPT a missionary organization?
NO. CPT is a peacemaking organization focussed on reducing violence and protecting human rights in conflict zones. CPT does not participate in any missionary activities. Christian Peacemaker Teams was founded in 1984 by three historic peace churches, Mennonite, Church of the Brethren and Quaker, and now enjoys support and membership from a wide range of Christian denominations, including Catholics, Baptists and Presbyterians. While CPTers have chosen to follow Jesus Christ, they do not proselytize."

Hardly Christians spouting the Gospel!

I very much doubt that they even mentioned Christ to anyone who didn't specifically ask them, and even then they would have been reluctant. They weren't there to convert anyone, they were there to bring peace and social justice. Most of their work seems to have been concerned with ensuring representation and fair treatment for prisoners. You know, those things we have as a right and take for granted.

As for your other comment about the fact they were kidnapped proving how they were not welcome, perhaps you simply aren't aware that they have said they were held by criminals seeking money, not 'terrorists' or 'religious fanatics.' Nothing to do with the fact they were Christians, everything to do with the fact they were Westerners, and so deemed very marketable. On the contrary, their release was called for by many Muslim bodies both within Iraq and outside, including as has been said, Hamas.

This is all very well, and you've clearly read your stuff. However, as the copper said, he's still an ungrateful bastard.

 

[Porky]

Apparently he had said at some time that he did not want a military rescue, yet he was quite happy to have ordinary squaddies place themselves in harms way to get him out.
If he didn't want a military rescue, why didn'y he tell the squsddies to bugger off and settle back into his flea pit. [YEAH RIGHT]