[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Weststander]

Spare me your fairness

I know it should never be about the personalities, and politicians are usually pilloried.

But I rated the likes of Smith, Dewar, Milburn, Blunkett, Darling, Robertson, Jim Murphy and John Reid. Note: the high proportion of Scots.

Nothing’s perfect and there were some smarmy and sly cabinet members too imo. But overall, memories of some good work done.

Sorry if that goes against the revisionism that they were all Trump-esque.

 

[warmleyseagull]

http://camdennewjournal.com/article...bers-not-to-back-keir-starmers-leadership-bid

Camden Momentum urges Labour Party members not to back Keir Starmer’s leadership bid

With friends like this working for you locally who needs enemies?

The statement from Momentum said: “It has been clear to us for years that Starmer has been positioning himself to become leader of the Labour party. Now that he has launched his campaign, it’s equally clear he’s making an opportunistic tilt to the left – because he correctly perceives that the majority of the membership wants to continue what Jeremy Corbyn started. Starmer has hired some of Corbyn’s former advisers; at his campaign launch, he said that he doesn’t want to ‘trash’ Corbyn’s legacy as we ‘move forward’. But based on our experience, we do not trust him to follow through on these gestures and warm words.”

It added: “Leaving aside his public role in steering Labour towards the electorally disastrous People’s Vote campaign, he has not sought to engage with, encourage or welcome the left at the local level. In Holborn abd St Pancras, he has built a team around his that has worked tirelessly to marginalise the left within the CLP, yet he now calls for an end to ‘factionalism’. The fact that the CLP executive mooted to suspend constituency-level meetings during the leadership campaign suggests Starmer will hardly be a leader to empower or listen to the membership.”

Well, they are not his friends, are they? Momentum is a cancer within the Labour Party that will, untreated, ultimately kill its host. RLB will be another token marionette whose strings are pulled by unelected aficionados whose view of the world is shared by few. Frankly I am amazed that a male, pale, stale London based knighted QC is polling about same as RLB. She should be so far ahead that the others chuck the towel in now. It does show that there are many sane Labour Party members; be great if they decide to ditch the party if RLB wins and leave her and her cronies to indulge in their self righteous nonsense without bothering the rest of us.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

....plus:
Oh look, I know it'll see me vilified by 70% on NSC, but I'm campaigning against us joining the common market (aka - eventually - the EU).

Strange analogy. A politician in the 70s knew a football discussion forum on the internet would occur in 40 years time? You’re saying he was clairvoyant?

 

[GT49er]

Strange analogy. A politician in the 70s knew a football discussion forum on the internet would occur in 40 years time? You’re saying he was clairvoyant?

No. Just that he was right.

 

[clapham_gull]

Major's government were so mired in corruption that all Blair had to do to win the election in 1997 was to keep his mouth shut.

Jesus, that really is bollocks and revisionism of the worst kind. I hated Blair from the beginning to be honest, but the way they went about getting power will go down as one of the cleverest and most strategic political land grabs in UK election history.

It was marketing genius.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Jesus, that really is bollocks and revisionism of the worst kind. I hated Blair from the beginning to be honest, but the way they went about getting power will go down as one of the cleverest and most strategic political land grabs in UK election history.

It was marketing genius.

Did you ever the saying 'oppositions don't win elections - governments lose them' ? - and 1997 was a prime example of a government that was always going to lose the election - no matter what the opposition did.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Did you ever the saying 'oppositions don't win elections - governments lose them' ? - and 1997 was a prime example of a government that was always going to lose the election - no matter what the opposition did.

To be fair JRG, you should have been saying the same about 1992. If anything, the Conservative government was in a worse state in 1992 than it was in 1997 where the economy was recovering, and things were starting to look brighter. That said, perhaps by 1997 we were just so utterly bored with them that Lenin himself might have led Labour to a victory that year.

What you have to remember is that 1997 wasn't just 1997, it laid the foundations for winning in 2001 and 2005. The public bought into the 'New Labour' branding, but what unraveled for Brown was that these victories weren't built on any substance, there was no great sense that Labour were building a lasting legacy. Once the non Labour supporting public fancied a change, Labour faced the reality that it had lost many of it's actual supporters.

 

[Live by the sea]

How far the Labour Party has fallen over the last 10 years can be measured by some of the recent MP’s. Long Bailey and that Sultana woman , both really daft simplistic people who even 10 years ago would not have been selected to stand as labour MP’s.

Putting political views to one side , the quality of candidates to be MP’s for Labour has fallen off a cliff since Momentum started to influence this process.

Many of these new labour mp’s are no different to what we use to call rabble raiders who worked for the trade unions. All mouth and no brain cells.

 

[Bodian]

And where did I say, imply or suggest that Major had a strong government?

I was making the point that when working class people brought the Tories to their knees, Kinnock and the future Blairites handed power on a platter back to the Tories by trying to be more tory than the Tories. Major's government were so mired in corruption that all Blair had to do to win the election in 1997 was to keep his mouth shut.

Well, you did say "Johnson's Tories do not have anything approaching the support base that the Thatcher/Major Tories had". Which, with your comments that Johnson's government is weak & Thatcher's was strong does sort of imply that you were lumping Major in with Thatcher as strong governments....

 

[Gwylan]

How far the Labour Party has fallen over the last 10 years can be measured by some of the recent MP’s. Long Bailey and that Sultana woman , both really daft simplistic people who even 10 years ago would not have been selected to stand as labour MP’s.

Putting political views to one side , the quality of candidates to be MP’s for Labour has fallen off a cliff since Momentum started to influence this process.

Many of these new labour mp’s are no different to what we use to call rabble raiders who worked for the trade unions. All mouth and no brain cells.

That may well be true but you could also say the same about the Tory party. Some of the MPs elected in the last 10 years have been shockers.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Did you ever the saying 'oppositions don't win elections - governments lose them' ? - and 1997 was a prime example of a government that was always going to lose the election - no matter what the opposition did.

In which case can you explain how a minority government that had been through two different leaders, barely won a single vote, failed to deliver Brexit, failed to do anything, led by a lying racist and full of sexual harrasment allegations and Islamaphobia not only won but turned a massive effective and actual minority in to a landslide?

 

[Surf's Up]

Well, they are not his friends, are they? Momentum is a cancer within the Labour Party that will, untreated, ultimately kill its host. RLB will be another token marionette whose strings are pulled by unelected aficionados whose view of the world is shared by few. Frankly I am amazed that a male, pale, stale London based knighted QC is polling about same as RLB. She should be so far ahead that the others chuck the towel in now. It does show that there are many sane Labour Party members; be great if they decide to ditch the party if RLB wins and leave her and her cronies to indulge in their self righteous nonsense without bothering the rest of us.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...having gained power within the Labour party through a combination of luck and stupidity on the part of Labour MPs the left will never relinquish power even if this means, as it surely will, the destruction of the Labour party as an electoral force in the process. The sooner Labour splits in two to reflect the new reality the better.

 

[Weststander]

To be fair JRG, you should have been saying the same about 1992. If anything, the Conservative government was in a worse state in 1992 than it was in 1997 where the economy was recovering, and things were starting to look brighter. That said, perhaps by 1997 we were just so utterly bored with them that Lenin himself might have led Labour to a victory that year.

What you have to remember is that 1997 wasn't just 1997, it laid the foundations for winning in 2001 and 2005. The public bought into the 'New Labour' branding, but what unraveled for Brown was that these victories weren't built on any substance, there was no great sense that Labour were building a lasting legacy. Once the non Labour supporting public fancied a change, Labour faced the reality that it had lost many of it's actual supporters.

Votes are only ever lent to a party.

Blair’s 40+% in 1997 and 2001 could never be turned into a permanent hardcore vote, as with any GE vote.

The marginal voters across huge swathes of England and Wales will always swing between parties.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Votes are only ever lent to a party.

Blair’s 40+% in 1997 and 2001 could never be turned into a permanent hardcore vote, as with any GE vote.

The marginal voters across huge swathes of England and Wales will always swing between parties.

Exactly, so what you never want to do is lose the voters that will vote for you every election come what may.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

To be fair JRG, you should have been saying the same about 1992. If anything, the Conservative government was in a worse state in 1992 than it was in 1997 where the economy was recovering, and things were starting to look brighter. That said, perhaps by 1997 we were just so utterly bored with them that Lenin himself might have led Labour to a victory that year.

Yes - the Tories were in a worse state in 1992 - but what did Kinnock do? Instead of attacking the Tories Kinnock declared war on socialists in the LP, expelled hundreds of left-wing activists, including left-wing MPs and shut down CLPs around the country imposing right-wing candidates on the constituencies.

What you have to remember is that 1997 wasn't just 1997, it laid the foundations for winning in 2001 and 2005. The public bought into the 'New Labour' branding, but what unraveled for Brown was that these victories weren't built on any substance, there was no great sense that Labour were building a lasting legacy. Once the non Labour supporting public fancied a change, Labour faced the reality that it had lost many of it's actual supporters.

Once people saw what Blair was like his popularity (and that of his government) went into decline - and during this period he emptied out the party of members and removed all elements of democracy from the LP - the only reason he was re-elected in subsequent elections was because the Tories were still mired in corruption and the economy was in an upswing.

In which case can you explain how a minority government that had been through two different leaders, barely won a single vote, failed to deliver Brexit, failed to do anything, led by a lying racist and full of sexual harrasment allegations and Islamaphobia not only won but turned a massive effective and actual minority in to a landslide?

Yep - Johnson said 'get brexit done' and hid in a freezer.

Corbyn caved into the Blairites, switched from Leave to Remain, refused to act against Blairites councils cutting services and allowed the Blairites and the media sabotage his campaign by failing to confront the smear campaign head-on.

Well, you did say "Johnson's Tories do not have anything approaching the support base that the Thatcher/Major Tories had". Which, with your comments that Johnson's government is weak & Thatcher's was strong does sort of imply that you were lumping Major in with Thatcher as strong governments....

Nope - the Thatcher period saw an element of mass support for Thatcherism (a little like the support Trump gets from a section of US society - but not on the same scale) - Thatcher whipped up jingoism and British nationalism, and her privatisation programme benefited a section of British society. Major came in on the tail end of that - but his success in 1992 was directly the result of the antics of Kinnock. Johnson has zero support base in British society - he had to hide in a fridge during the election campaign to avoid answering questions. As a result his government is significantly weaker than the majority would indicate. It really does help if you have people actively sabotaging your opponents election campaign.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yep - Johnson said 'get brexit done' and hid in a freezer.

So Corbyn lost to a bloke with an inane slogan who couldn't debate his way out of a fridge? You do realise that's not a good thing?

Corbyn caved into the Blairites, switched from Leave to Remain, refused to act against Blairites councils cutting services and allowed the Blairites and the media sabotage his campaign by failing to confront the smear campaign head-on.

.

You are a card. So when Blair won it was because he was up against a weak government but when Corbyn lost to a weak government it was all Blair's fault.

Ok mate.

 

[Gwylan]

So Corbyn lost to a bloke with an inane slogan who couldn't debate his way out of a fridge? You do realise that's not a good thing?

I'm not sticking up for Corbyn here - he ran a terrible campaign - but that wasn't an inane slogan, it was one the really resonated with people. To anyone who gave it a moment's thought, it was totally meaningless, but many millions didn't give it any thought and it was highly successful

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm not sticking up for Corbyn here - he ran a terrible campaign - but that wasn't an inane slogan, it was one the really resonated with people. To anyone who gave it a moment's thought, it was totally meaningless, but many millions didn't give it any thought and it was highly successful

This is the sad thing, a totally meaningless three word slogan influenced so many people. What does that say about the electorate?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'm not sticking up for Corbyn here - he ran a terrible campaign - but that wasn't an inane slogan, it was one the really resonated with people. To anyone who gave it a moment's thought, it was totally meaningless, but many millions didn't give it any thought and it was highly successful

A lot of things are inane but succesful. The X Factor. Barbie Girl. Dan Brown novels. The Sun.

That Labour utterly failed to debunk it is part of Corbyn's terrible campaign. That JRG is blaming Blair for that is, well hilarious. That Labour are thinking that the way to get back into power is to carry on with the cerebral left wing policies and no compromise and eventually people who watch the X-Factor, read Dan Brown and sing along to Barbie Girl at weddings will suddenly understand is, to be fair, utterly flabbergasting.

Blair was a tremendous populist. "Third way". "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime". And Alistair Campbell controlling the media in an even better way than Dom does for Boris. You have to look at all this and think that the policies on their own are never going to win a thing. Labour has to shift to the middle and it has to get better spin doctors or they will continue to lose to a racist with an inane slogan and a walk in fridge.

 

[BLOCK F]

This is the sad thing, a totally meaningless three word slogan influenced so many people. What does that say about the electorate?

It says that any doubts they may have harboured about Boris Johnson, the horror they had of Corbyn and McDonnell in charge of the country more than out weighed the misgivings re Johnson.