national strike

[paddy]

Comparable jobs? This is an opinion not a fact.

Well, it's based on the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings produced by the Office for National Statistics who actually use the term 'comparable jobs'. Your dispute is with them not me.

 

[jackanada]

Deluded and misguided. Bless.

Right back at you. Certainly tends to work that way in Education, Finance, Construction and Media. Other areas I'll admit I have not had a chance to examine.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Deliberately misleading, you are self-employed.

True. But I know other self-employed people who do the line of work I do and also tradesmen who take holidays consistent with those of teachers. Teachers might get 'more' holiday compared to employed people but not when compared to the work-force as a whole. They're at the upper end of the holiday range but I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. My time off is a combination of the ebb and flow of my work and me asking for the time off. Again, not a perk. Mind you this year I have had only 26 days holiday...which was written in contract.

 

[Max Paper]

Well you should join a Union then, and get them to fight your corner, as you are obviously incapable of doing so.

You are a f***ing idiot

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well, it's based on the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings produced by the Office for National Statistics who actually use the term 'comparable jobs'. Your dispute is with them not me.

It's still an opinion whether it's yours or the ONS'.

 

[jackanada]

You are a f***ing idiot

Once you resort to abuse you've lost the argument. Congratulations to everyone else for not being superbez.

 

[Max Paper]

Once you resort to abuse you've lost the argument. Congratulations to everyone else for not being superbez.

tell me about this argument?

 

[Albumen]

Well done to those striking today. Respect.

 

[paddy]

It's still an opinion whether it's yours or the ONS'.

Agreed. But I'm sure you'd would concede that the ONS is probably the most impartial and expert opinion we're likely to get on this matter since both sides of the argument, at least in part, resort to hyperbole and ignore the facts.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I have a lot of sympathy for this view - but it's clear that a lot of the variation between teachers is not through choice but through some combination of inherent ability to be organised (or otherwise) and experience. My wife is a head of department in a secondary school, but spends a lot less time planning now than she did when she was was an NQT or in the few couple of years of teaching, despite teaching practically the same number of lessons that she ever did and having many other responsibilities taking up her time at school. She certainly spends no more than one day of any given holiday preparing to return to work. However, several of her friends seem to spend untold hours every evening and weekend (and by the sounds of it practically all of their holidays) doing work for school, despite being of a similar age/experience level and having no more than her to do.

I have to agree with you on this. My ex teaches and she usually uses a day at the beginning of a holiday to clear up anything outstanding and then a day at the end for prep ( sometimes 2 days at the end of the Summer holiday ). She works 8.30 to 5.30 ( much the same as most of us ) and has weekends and evenings free in general. The only really frantic time is report time and then, I'll concede, she works four or five evenings on the trott. It's all about organisation and the evidence I've seen is that there are too many teachers that don't have this skill.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

True. But I know other self-employed people who do the line of work I do and also tradesmen who take holidays consistent with those of teachers. Teachers might get 'more' holiday compared to employed people but not when compared to the work-force as a whole. They're at the upper end of the holiday range but I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. My time off is a combination of the ebb and flow of my work and me asking for the time off. Again, not a perk. Mind you this year I have had only 26 days holiday...which was written in contract.

Also folk who work shift based work often get more time off and holiday as pay back for their working week being squeezed into 3-4 days. I do not see this as a perk either.

 

[User removed 4]

True. But I know other self-employed people who do the line of work I do and also tradesmen who take holidays consistent with those of teachers. Teachers might get 'more' holiday compared to employed people but not when compared to the work-force as a whole. They're at the upper end of the holiday range but I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. My time off is a combination of the ebb and flow of my work and me asking for the time off. Again, not a perk. Mind you this year I have had only 26 days holiday...which was written in contract.

The key word is “SELF-EMPLOYED” as in you’re not being funded by the taxpayer, I can believe people in your line of work take the amount of holiday you say, it’s well paid and I’m sure there are gaps between contracts, as for tradesmen such as sparks and chippies taking that amount of holiday ? leave off , the only way they would take that sort of time is if forced to by the fact that they’ve not got another start when the present job finishes, as for teachers being at the “upper end” of the holiday range, yes they are , by about eight f***ing weeks ! I can’t believe you really expect to be taken seriously with statements like “I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. “

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

But your suggestion was that private nurseries needed the children who used the free place scheme - they don't, they are actually worse off because of the scheme. In affect the people paying the full fees are subsidising the people using the free places.

The government don't force private schools to give free places.

I'm not even suggesting that Private Schools be forced to offer free places, although that is a peculiarly Conservative policy that the last Labour administartion abolished. I am suggesting that the average spend per pupil in the state sector ( which is around the £ 5,400 per annum for secondary schools, and £ 4,300 for primary schools ) is substantially less than the fees charged by most Private Schools, which average at £ 4,300 PER TERM. That's around 3x the cost of the state sector.

Of course, Private Schools have to fund their own employer contributions to their staff pensions in exactly the same way that the state sector does, the main point is that cost doesn't just disappear because the taxpayer no longer pays for it.

In the context of those figures, the Assisted Places Scheme, which was a Conservative policy introduced by Mrs. Thatcher, offers exceptionally poor value to the taxpayer, but it does offer exceptionally good value to the people who are being educated.

Now whilst many in the Private Sector are happy to see their taxes being reduced, how are they going to feel if they are then to be faced with the 'market' cost of their children's education as represented by the Independant School sector.

 

[jackanada]

The key word is “SELF-EMPLOYED” as in you’re not being funded by the taxpayer, I can believe people in your line of work take the amount of holiday you say, it’s well paid and I’m sure there are gaps between contracts, as for tradesmen such as sparks and chippies taking that amount of holiday ? leave off , the only way they would take that sort of time is if forced to by the fact that they’ve not got another start when the present job finishes, as for teachers being at the “upper end” of the holiday range, yes they are , by about eight f***ing weeks ! I can’t believe you really expect to be taken seriously with statements like “I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. “

How about thinking of time spent working instead of holiday. Most teachers I know work around 60 hours a week, standard office job is 35-40. Do the maths.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm not even suggesting that Private Schools be forced to offer free places, although that is a peculiarly Conservative policy that the last Labour administartion abolished. I am suggesting that the average spend per pupil in the state sector ( which is around the £ 5,400 per annum for secondary schools, and £ 4,300 for primary schools ) is substantially less than the fees charged by most Private Schools, which average at £ 4,300 PER TERM. That's around 3x the cost of the state sector.

Of course, Private Schools have to fund their own employer contributions to their staff pensions in exactly the same way that the state sector does, the main point is that cost doesn't just disappear because the taxpayer no longer pays for it.

In the context of those figures, the Assisted Places Scheme, which was a Conservative policy introduced by Mrs. Thatcher, offers exceptionally poor value to the taxpayer, but it does offer exceptionally good value to the people who are being educated.

Now whilst many in the Private Sector are happy to see their taxes being reduced, how are they going to feel if they are then to be faced with the 'market' cost of their children's education as represented by the Independant School sector.

I'm really not sure what your point is ?

You suggested that private NURSERIES needed the government assisted places to survive - they don't. The money the government gives doesn't cover the COST to the nursery of the free place. So in fact the scheme puts some private nurseries at risk.

I don't get why you have suddenly introduced private schools into the discussion - they're not the same. As an aside, I'm not sure where you get those figures from because both my children go to private school and their fees aren't anywhere near that figure.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Most teachers I know work around 60 hours a week, standard office job is 35-40. Do the maths.

In which case, as posted previously, I would suggest they aren't as organised as they need to be. My ex works around 40 hours a week as a teacher, rarely does evening or weekend work. My sister is a teacher and does around 45 hours a week.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The key word is “SELF-EMPLOYED” as in you’re not being funded by the taxpayer, I can believe people in your line of work take the amount of holiday you say, it’s well paid and I’m sure there are gaps between contracts, as for tradesmen such as sparks and chippies taking that amount of holiday ? leave off , the only way they would take that sort of time is if forced to by the fact that they’ve not got another start when the present job finishes, as for teachers being at the “upper end” of the holiday range, yes they are , by about eight f***ing weeks ! I can’t believe you really expect to be taken seriously with statements like “I do not really see it as a perk as such, more part of the working pattern of the job. “

The sparks who did some work for me a while back buggered off to France regularly between jobs. It was very much his decision and not forced on him.

It might be 'eight f***ing weeks' when you compare it to a 9-5 office based job but there is a wide range of employee positions out there which do not follow the typical 9-5 and 6 weeks off holiday deal. Maybe if you stepped out of your little blinkered world you might notice this. Teacher's time off it as the top end, but as I pointed out it is not up there on it's own. Teacher's time off is certainly a working pattern of the job.

 

[Max Paper]

How about thinking of time spent working instead of holiday. Most teachers I know work around 60 hours a week, standard office job is 35-40. Do the maths.

You seem to have moved on with out responding to my post? What argument? What are you talking about? Are you stupid?

 

[Storer 68]

So your wife is a paper-pusher. I have no doubt she has more free time. At the coal face it's a bit different.

I thnk you'll find he said she was a TEACHER.

Not my defifinition of a pen pusher. (and anyway civil servants rarely use pens nowadays......... we are all keyboard warriors!)

 

[Driver8]

There are supposed to be 15,000 rallying outside our building at 11.00. I just counted and there were 8.