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My letter to Norman Baker.



DIFFBROOK

Really Up the Junction
Feb 3, 2005
2,267
Yorkshire
Dear Mr Baker 9 March 2006

I am writing to you about Brighton & Hove Albions plans to play at Falmer

Firstly I would like to give you a brief resume as to why Brighton & Hove Albion need to find a new permanent home and why that home is Falmer. In 1997, Brighton & Hove Albion were forced to vacate their home ground after it was sold by a businessman called Bill Archer. His Chief Executive, David Bellotti a failed Liberal Democrat MP was responsible for day to day workings of the club and its sale. In mid 1997 they were replaced by Dick Knight, a fan and businessman. However the damage was done. Although Brighton narrowly avoided relegation that season into the then Conference league, the club would be forced to play the following seasons games at Gillingham FC. Some 90 miles away.

It is testament to the clubs directors and fans that the club successfully moved to the Withdean Stadium in Brighton. This was a temporary move until a new site could be found. In the past 5 seasons Brighton & Hove Albion have clawed their way back from the lower reaches of the football league to its second tier. In that time, they have won the 3rd Division Championship, the 2nd Division Championship and won a play off final at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff. Not bad for a club hampered by its environment. Think what it could do with a proper stadium

In 1998 Brighton Council canvassed a referendum to ask if a) Brighton should play games at Brighton and b) should Falmer be the preferred site for a permanent stadium. (the site for the stadium being in Brighton, not Lewes ).An overwhelming number voted in favour of both. Wouldn’t you agree that is democracy at its best . I appreciate that Falmer residents were not included in that referendum, but the stadium is in Brighton not Lewes. I’m all for referendums and local democracy, so why haven’t Lewes District Council embarked on a similar referendum for its residents? Maybe the answer would be the same i.e they would overwhelmingly be in favour of a stadium at Falmer. The only polls taken, have been by the Argus and Brighton fans. Although not scientific both have shown a big vote in favour of the Albion playing at Falmer. Still as Lewes Council and yourself have shown, why should the majority of public opinion matter to politicians……except of course at Vote time.

As you know full well the Albion simply cannot remain at Withdean. It is not a football stadium, it never will be and the losses that the club makes there are unsustainable. I presume that you have visited Withdean and seen with your own eyes and agree on this point.

Therefore a planning application was made to Brighton & Hove Council for a new stadium at land earmarked for development. This land was beside Falmer University. This was accepted by Brighton Council. However, to cover all the arguments the Govt called in the application for an inquiry. Both sides put their arguments forward. This inspector failed to support the need for a stadium at Falmer. During this period many Albion fans e-mailed or simply wrote to the ODPM, John Prescott. His decision was to grant another inquiry. This was too look at alternative sites. Again, both sides made their case. It was interesting to note that Lewes District Council were less than willing to put up their lead officials. I think one had a skiing trip booked during a session and couldn’t appear thus delaying the inquiry. I think you would have asked serious questions in the house if a Civil Servant couldn’t appear at a Parliamentary hearing because of a Skiing trip!. Anyway more of that later.

Finally the second inquiry reported that no alternative site could be found. Mr Prescott weighed up the evidence before him and the arguments made, and decided that there was a national need for development and opportunities for the area of Moulsecoomb and so a stadium should be built at Falmer. None twisted Mr Prescotts arm, he was swayed by the Argument. Maybe thousands of Brighton fans did write to him, maybe that swayed him. Bully for us. If Lewes/Falmer residents were so outraged, why didn’t they write in similar numbers? The fact is that there is not this huge groundswell of feeling against the stadium. It is NIMBYISM and snobbery at its worst.

I now turn to the role Liberal Democrats have played in this saga. As you know a Liberal Democrat started this whole process off by selling the Goldstone Ground. I also question your judgement on this. A report in the Argus quoted you or insinuated that you would “rather see the Albion die, than build a stadium at Falmer”. Now I find this shocking that a local MP could say this. Yourself and Lewes Council keep referring to another more suitable site. Please bear in mind that an inspector who is more qualified to judge than you or I has said that although not perfect no other site can beat Falmer. So, please tell me where this alternative site is. Remember, football league rules state the ground must be within 8 miles of central Brighton and the inspector has ruled out all the others in his inquiry. I and the club would really like to know where this alternative is.

Whilst Environment spokesman for the Lib Dems, you would have travelled the length of Britain, the world even. Can you really say that the site for the Stadium is in an area of outstanding natural beauty? Is near a motorway beautiful? How about the worst examples of 60’s architecture at the University. I would agree with you if the Albion were planning to build in the middles of the South Downs. The club has bent over backwards to be as environmentally accommodating as possible. Public transport being the primary mode of transport to the ground. That’s groundbreaking in this country. You should be supporting it as a blueprint for other developments. To be honest I think the stadium will enhance the area.

The fact is there isn’t an alternative to Falmer. It’s a smokescreen. A delaying tactic that Lewes Council have played all along. From the missing official at the inquiry to the latest Judicial Review. Lewes Council have no alternative. There only plan is to hope that the Albion bleed a slow death. So what are your views on this? Would you like to see the Albion die rather than be at Falmer. An Argus report certainly insinuated if not directly reported that you would. If so, that would a disgraceful thing for a Sussex MP to say about a club that represents Sussex.
I also recall seeing in the Argus, that you said that whatever decision is made, even if you did not agree with it, you would accept that decision. So why is there on your website the following “Opposition to the development is also backed by the local Lib Dem MP Norman Baker who added, "This decision has been made purely for political reasons rather than on planning grounds." Is this another case of an MP who says one thing and does another. I believe that the stadium was granted for both reasons. There were solid reasons why it was granted. The national need to try and eliminate poverty and to create opportunities for those that currently don’t have any. That need is pressing at Moulsecoomb. Of course there is the national need for Albion to have a permanent home. Being in a national league and the only league club in Sussex being just two of them. Milton Keynes thought it so important to have one, it imported one. Maybe Brighton fans have again persuaded the ODPM for the need for a stadium. But isn’t this again what democracy all about i.e about persuading people. Its not about authoritarianism, that’s what they do in North Korea.

I also recall that you raised in the House of Commons about Mr Prescott attending a pre-match meal with Brighton & Hove Albion directors before the match with Hull City. That meal was a steak pie and a glass of water. Can you enlighten me as to your questioning this? It would appear that you are insinuating that Mr Prescott was accepting a bribe. Can you also tell me why you have changed your mind as to not accept his decision.

So now we have the situation where Lewes District Council without consultation and behind closed doors have decided to seek a Judicial Review of the Stadium application. Wouldn’t you agree that this flies in the face of local democracy and is intended simply to waste more time and heap more pressure onto the Albions finances, in the hope that they go bust. Its LDC and your hope that this happens isn’t it. From start to finish, the Albions future has been threatened by Liberal Democrats. Can you tell me if its official Lib Dem Policy to destroy league football in Sussex.

I will simply finish by saying, you and Lewes Council will fail. The Albion have survived over 100 years. It will be here a lot longer than you and I. The club will play at Falmer. The club and its supporters have seen Brighton back from Gillingham to Withdean. We will see it to Falmer. When the stadium plays host to its first game, the club and supporters will be proud to welcome all Sussex politicians and everybody who has helped us over the years. You should be ashamed that you will not be invited.

I doubt very much if I will get a reply from you, but hey, isn’t it the byword of Lib Dems to ignore the public.

I have copied this letter to Ming Campbell

Yours sincerely,

Steve Dibdin
 




dougdeep

New member
May 9, 2004
37,732
SUNNY SEAFORD
You'll get a reply within a week. I always have. Good letter.
 




junior

Well-known member
Dec 1, 2003
6,622
Didsbury, Manchester
Its not often i'll sit and read a long letter like that.I dont have the attention span.

But i did read it all and its brilliant.Hat's off for you for taking the time and effort to write it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 


Halftime Oranges

New member
Oct 22, 2003
2,324
Rottingdean
DIFFBROOK said:
I appreciate that Falmer residents were not included in that referendum, but the stadium is in Brighton not Lewes.

Excellent point:clap2:
 








Yorkie

Sussex born and bred
Jul 5, 2003
32,367
dahn sarf
It's a great effort. It's a pity he will reply with a completely non commital letter and typical politicians answers.
I wrote to Mark Oaten and Simon Hughes recently (when they were in the leadership race) and they both referred me to Baker.
I got a letter back from him as above.
 








Basil Fawlty

Don't Mention The War
DIFFBROOK said:
Dear Mr Baker 9 March 2006

I am writing to you about Brighton & Hove Albions plans to play at Falmer

Firstly I would like to give you a brief resume as to why Brighton & Hove Albion need to find a new permanent home and why that home is Falmer. In 1997, Brighton & Hove Albion were forced to vacate their home ground after it was sold by a businessman called Bill Archer. His Chief Executive, David Bellotti a failed Liberal Democrat MP was responsible for day to day workings of the club and its sale. In mid 1997 they were replaced by Dick Knight, a fan and businessman. However the damage was done. Although Brighton narrowly avoided relegation that season into the then Conference league, the club would be forced to play the following seasons games at Gillingham FC. Some 90 miles away.

It is testament to the clubs directors and fans that the club successfully moved to the Withdean Stadium in Brighton. This was a temporary move until a new site could be found. In the past 5 seasons Brighton & Hove Albion have clawed their way back from the lower reaches of the football league to its second tier. In that time, they have won the 3rd Division Championship, the 2nd Division Championship and won a play off final at the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff. Not bad for a club hampered by its environment. Think what it could do with a proper stadium

In 1998 Brighton Council canvassed a referendum to ask if a) Brighton should play games at Brighton and b) should Falmer be the preferred site for a permanent stadium. (the site for the stadium being in Brighton, not Lewes ).An overwhelming number voted in favour of both. Wouldn’t you agree that is democracy at its best . I appreciate that Falmer residents were not included in that referendum, but the stadium is in Brighton not Lewes. I’m all for referendums and local democracy, so why haven’t Lewes District Council embarked on a similar referendum for its residents? Maybe the answer would be the same i.e they would overwhelmingly be in favour of a stadium at Falmer. The only polls taken, have been by the Argus and Brighton fans. Although not scientific both have shown a big vote in favour of the Albion playing at Falmer. Still as Lewes Council and yourself have shown, why should the majority of public opinion matter to politicians……except of course at Vote time.

As you know full well the Albion simply cannot remain at Withdean. It is not a football stadium, it never will be and the losses that the club makes there are unsustainable. I presume that you have visited Withdean and seen with your own eyes and agree on this point.

Therefore a planning application was made to Brighton & Hove Council for a new stadium at land earmarked for development. This land was beside Falmer University. This was accepted by Brighton Council. However, to cover all the arguments the Govt called in the application for an inquiry. Both sides put their arguments forward. This inspector failed to support the need for a stadium at Falmer. During this period many Albion fans e-mailed or simply wrote to the ODPM, John Prescott. His decision was to grant another inquiry. This was too look at alternative sites. Again, both sides made their case. It was interesting to note that Lewes District Council were less than willing to put up their lead officials. I think one had a skiing trip booked during a session and couldn’t appear thus delaying the inquiry. I think you would have asked serious questions in the house if a Civil Servant couldn’t appear at a Parliamentary hearing because of a Skiing trip!. Anyway more of that later.

Finally the second inquiry reported that no alternative site could be found. Mr Prescott weighed up the evidence before him and the arguments made, and decided that there was a national need for development and opportunities for the area of Moulsecoomb and so a stadium should be built at Falmer. None twisted Mr Prescotts arm, he was swayed by the Argument. Maybe thousands of Brighton fans did write to him, maybe that swayed him. Bully for us. If Lewes/Falmer residents were so outraged, why didn’t they write in similar numbers? The fact is that there is not this huge groundswell of feeling against the stadium. It is NIMBYISM and snobbery at its worst.

I now turn to the role Liberal Democrats have played in this saga. As you know a Liberal Democrat started this whole process off by selling the Goldstone Ground. I also question your judgement on this. A report in the Argus quoted you or insinuated that you would “rather see the Albion die, than build a stadium at Falmer”. Now I find this shocking that a local MP could say this. Yourself and Lewes Council keep referring to another more suitable site. Please bear in mind that an inspector who is more qualified to judge than you or I has said that although not perfect no other site can beat Falmer. So, please tell me where this alternative site is. Remember, football league rules state the ground must be within 8 miles of central Brighton and the inspector has ruled out all the others in his inquiry. I and the club would really like to know where this alternative is.

Whilst Environment spokesman for the Lib Dems, you would have travelled the length of Britain, the world even. Can you really say that the site for the Stadium is in an area of outstanding natural beauty? Is near a motorway beautiful? How about the worst examples of 60’s architecture at the University. I would agree with you if the Albion were planning to build in the middles of the South Downs. The club has bent over backwards to be as environmentally accommodating as possible. Public transport being the primary mode of transport to the ground. That’s groundbreaking in this country. You should be supporting it as a blueprint for other developments. To be honest I think the stadium will enhance the area.

The fact is there isn’t an alternative to Falmer. It’s a smokescreen. A delaying tactic that Lewes Council have played all along. From the missing official at the inquiry to the latest Judicial Review. Lewes Council have no alternative. There only plan is to hope that the Albion bleed a slow death. So what are your views on this? Would you like to see the Albion die rather than be at Falmer. An Argus report certainly insinuated if not directly reported that you would. If so, that would a disgraceful thing for a Sussex MP to say about a club that represents Sussex.
I also recall seeing in the Argus, that you said that whatever decision is made, even if you did not agree with it, you would accept that decision. So why is there on your website the following “Opposition to the development is also backed by the local Lib Dem MP Norman Baker who added, "This decision has been made purely for political reasons rather than on planning grounds." Is this another case of an MP who says one thing and does another. I believe that the stadium was granted for both reasons. There were solid reasons why it was granted. The national need to try and eliminate poverty and to create opportunities for those that currently don’t have any. That need is pressing at Moulsecoomb. Of course there is the national need for Albion to have a permanent home. Being in a national league and the only league club in Sussex being just two of them. Milton Keynes thought it so important to have one, it imported one. Maybe Brighton fans have again persuaded the ODPM for the need for a stadium. But isn’t this again what democracy all about i.e about persuading people. Its not about authoritarianism, that’s what they do in North Korea.

I also recall that you raised in the House of Commons about Mr Prescott attending a pre-match meal with Brighton & Hove Albion directors before the match with Hull City. That meal was a steak pie and a glass of water. Can you enlighten me as to your questioning this? It would appear that you are insinuating that Mr Prescott was accepting a bribe. Can you also tell me why you have changed your mind as to not accept his decision.

So now we have the situation where Lewes District Council without consultation and behind closed doors have decided to seek a Judicial Review of the Stadium application. Wouldn’t you agree that this flies in the face of local democracy and is intended simply to waste more time and heap more pressure onto the Albions finances, in the hope that they go bust. Its LDC and your hope that this happens isn’t it. From start to finish, the Albions future has been threatened by Liberal Democrats. Can you tell me if its official Lib Dem Policy to destroy league football in Sussex.

I will simply finish by saying, you and Lewes Council will fail. The Albion have survived over 100 years. It will be here a lot longer than you and I. The club will play at Falmer. The club and its supporters have seen Brighton back from Gillingham to Withdean. We will see it to Falmer. When the stadium plays host to its first game, the club and supporters will be proud to welcome all Sussex politicians and everybody who has helped us over the years. You should be ashamed that you will not be invited.

I doubt very much if I will get a reply from you, but hey, isn’t it the byword of Lib Dems to ignore the public.

I have copied this letter to Ming Campbell

Yours sincerely,

Steve Dibdin

A fantastic letter, I think I will leave now because my eyes hurt after reading that. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 




Barry Izbak

U.T.A.
Dec 7, 2005
7,395
Lancing By Sea
Diffbrook letter is top class, but there's just something about that effort from Cereal Killer.... it gets straight to the point somehow.

:clap2:
 




DIFFBROOK

Really Up the Junction
Feb 3, 2005
2,267
Yorkshire
I've copied it onto Menzies Campbell and Don Foster, Lib Dem Sports and Culture Secretary.

I have asked for their comments.

I must admit I only expect a typical MP response, but you have to do something dont you.
 




Uncle Spielberg

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2003
43,061
Lancing
Great effort but it would have been in Baker's bin before the 2nd paragraph.
 


Eggmundo

U & I R listening to KAOS
Jul 8, 2003
3,466
Barry Hazgon said:
Diffbrook letter is top class, but there's just something about that effort from Cereal Killer.... it gets straight to the point somehow.

:clap2:
Maybe it can be added as a P.S.?
Top letter.:bowdown:
 


Like any MP, Baker knows how to deal with correspondence. He employs people in his office to read letters like this.

Any letter from a pro-stadium correspondent will get the standard response that was prepared years ago. His office staff will print this out. The response will be put in a pile of letters that is then passed to Baker for his signature and the reply will be on its way, without him ever seeing the incoming letter.

For some reason, people seem to think that MPs actually read all letters that are sent to them.



It's the same with Councillors. Part of my job used to be drafting responses to letters addressed to Norman Baker when he was Chair of the Sub-Committee at East Sussex County Council that ran the service I managed. In practice, it was my decision as to whether or not he even got to see the incoming correspondence.
 


DIFFBROOK

Really Up the Junction
Feb 3, 2005
2,267
Yorkshire
LB, I know. I work in a Govt Dept and see all the correspondence that Ministers never see. So yes, it was pointless.

But I am so frustrated with the absolute crap that comes out of the mouths of these people.

Is there anything we can do, or it a case of waiting and "we will have our day"
 




Tony Meolas Loan Spell

Slut Faced Whores
Jul 15, 2004
18,069
Vamanos Pest
Cereal Killer said:
my letter to Norman Baker...

Dear Mr Baker

YOU'RE A CUNT!

Yours

Cereal Killer


Thats what I was going to say!!!!
 


sully

Dunscouting
Jul 7, 2003
7,918
Worthing
Whilst it's a great letter, I always wince at the few inaccuracies that we always manage to slip in, before pointing out errors in our opponents information.

As LB says, none of the persons it's addressed to will read it.

I only got half way through, but :

Is Gillingham really 90 miles away? I could get home in an hour from the terrace on a good day!

Where is Falmer University?


I know it's easy to pick holes, but it's equally easy to be certain of our facts if we are going to include them in such a letter.

I'm not trying to belittle the effort, just not sure that it needs saying at all any more. Baker knows the whole story, knows our opinions and that we are many. It just seems futile.
 


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