aolstudios
Well-known member
Ok mateThey aren't, see post #2,326 by @Zeberdi
Ok mateThey aren't, see post #2,326 by @Zeberdi
Thanks @Bakero - it’s stuck behind a paywall (I don’t subscribe) but essentially what I have been saying for days with regard to stereotyping of demonstrators- so thank you for posting link.This article chimed with me, especially after the recent comments on here about the demonstrations in London.
The thousands calling for a ceasefire and peace deserve better than abuse and belittlement | Aditya Chakrabortty
Politicians and much of the media ignore, stereotype and demonise protestors. This lack of engagement is a risk to us all, says Guardian columnist Aditya Chakraborttywww.theguardian.com
I was particularly struck by the quotes related to the Iraq war protests 20 years ago:
A very minor point in context to what's going on in Gaza, but The Guardian doesn't have a paywall. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least it's freely available.Btw - the Guardian has lifted it’s paywall for the course of the Israel-Hamas War on it’s news pages which is good going from them but your article comes under editorial I think.
Thanks @Bakero - it’s stuck behind a paywall (I don’t subscribe) but essentially what I have been saying for days with regard to stereotyping of demonstrators- so thank you for posting link.
Btw - the Guardian has lifted it’s paywall for the course of the Israel-Hamas War on it’s news pages which is good going from them but your article comes under editorial I think.
Latest news, sport and opinion from the Guardian
Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voicewww.theguardian.com
I, for one, found this article newsworthy. Whilst it doesn't say that Israel was involved in founding Hamas (as has been claimed on here), it does explain that Netanyahu has been tacitly enabling its support and existence in order to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and try to ensure no progress towards a 2 state solution. As long as you have Hamas intent on eradicating the Israeli state and Netanyahu intent on ensuring Israel does not agree to a Palestinian State there will, tragically, be continual conflict and deaths.I think we're flogging a dead horse here. Despite posting repeated links to reports such as this, there are some on this thread who have their fingers in their ears and just want to keep stating how evil Hamas is, a fact which we all agree on anyway.
For Netanyahu this is a similar moment Thatcher had with the Falklands. Both were warned prior, both unpopular, the war garners support for their political aims. With his Zionist partners in government this is a worrying time.I, for one, found this article newsworthy. Whilst it doesn't say that Israel was involved in founding Hamas (as has been claimed on here), it does explain that Netanyahu has been tacitly enabling its support and existence in order to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and try to ensure no progress towards a 2 state solution. As long as you have Hamas intent on eradicating the Israeli state and Netanyahu intent on ensuring Israel does not agree to a Palestinian State there will, tragically, be continual conflict and deaths.
Both sides have to change their positions or be removed from the equation.
I was able to access it and I'm not a subscriber.Thanks @Bakero - it’s stuck behind a paywall (I don’t subscribe) but essentially what I have been saying for days with regard to stereotyping of demonstrators- so thank you for posting link.
Btw - the Guardian has lifted it’s paywall for the course of the Israel-Hamas War on it’s news pages which is good going from them but your article comes under editorial I think.
Latest news, sport and opinion from the Guardian
Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voicewww.theguardian.com
I, for one, found this article newsworthy. Whilst it doesn't say that Israel was involved in founding Hamas (as has been claimed on here), it does explain that Netanyahu has been tacitly enabling its support and existence in order to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and try to ensure no progress towards a 2 state solution. As long as you have Hamas intent on eradicating the Israeli state and Netanyahu intent on ensuring Israel does not agree to a Palestinian State there will, tragically, be continual conflict and deaths.
Both sides have to change their positions or be removed from the equation.
A very minor point in context to what's going on in Gaza, but The Guardian doesn't have a paywall. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least it's freely available.
Apologies - I have edited my post accordingly - I have never really noticed that it was just a registration pop up and request for donations rather than a paywall - I skipped over the Guardian website it many times in the past for thinking that was a paywall pop up without even reading it properly - so thank you for setting me right!There's never a paywall on the Guardian, is there? Sometimes there's a pop up asking if you want to subscribe but there's no obligation to do so.
Unfortunately, this one is behind a paywall.How Israel helped create Hamas
It also obscures Hamas's curious history. To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
I didn't get a paywallUnfortunately, this one is behind a paywall.
Thanks, i can access that.I didn't get a paywall
There's loads out there, but the current conflict is taking up all the news feeds. Just look for articles before the current conflict. Maybe try this one
How and why Israel helped create Hamas?
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas
Thanks. I ca
Thanks, i can access that.
A couple of interesting extracts for context:-
Gaza, which was occupied by Israel as a result of June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, patronised Mujama al-Islamiya which was formed by a Palestinian cleric Sheikh Ahmed Yasin and viewed it as a harmless organisation involved in charity and welfare work for the Palestinian community of Gaza. Mujama al-Islamiya later became Hamas before Intifada-I was launched in December 1987.
How Israel helped the creation of Hamas is narrated by Andrew Higgins, an Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s. In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in 2009, he stated, “When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake but at the time nobody thought about the possible results. Israel’s military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy.
I hadn't until now really taken on board how small the Gaza Strip is - about 25 by 4-7 miles - roughly the same size as Mid Sussex.Picking up a point made several pages ago, I thought this graphic really illustrates how dense the population is, particularly in the North.
View attachment 168645
YepUnfortunately, this one is behind a paywall.
Yes, I've seen that. This view, obviously, became less popular after 1988 when Hamas became a fully-fledged military/terrorist organisation (subsequently supported and controlled by Iran) but came back into vogue from 2014 under Netanyahu's leadership.If you have the time, there are lots of interviews and first hand reports from Israeli officials at the time explaining how they backed Hamas (and it's forerunners) in order to try and split Palestinian support away from the powerful and secular PLO who were wanting a two state solution.
I wonder if they now regard what they did as successful
I'm not sure it addresses any points on this thread at all.A typically thoughtful and interesting response from Daniel Finkelstein addressing a few points I have read on this thread, well worth a read.
A short extract below ..
... as long as Hamas dominates there can be no Free Palestine. No liberty. No freedom. No security. I don’t just mean for Israelis. I mean for Palestinians too.
For as long as Hamas dominates, it will launch wars against Israel, as it did earlier this month. It does this as a strategy to provoke nice people like you to put pressure on Israel to allow Hamas more freedom. So every time you write to me as you did, you are encouraging them to carry on. This, I know, is far from you what you want. But it is the practical effect.
Urging Israel to hold back now, or call a ceasefire, is not the same as wishing for peace or urging a two state solution, or saying you don’t like Benjamin Netanyahu or arguing that the settlements are a moral and strategic error. It is not the same as trying to be liberal and pacific.
It is, instead, arguing that Hamas ought to be rewarded for their action and that peace and security is possible with them next door. Which it simply isn’t.
What freeing Palestine requires above all is for Hamas to be completely defeated. This may not be sufficient, but it is certainly necessary. And what that means is that Israel has to see through its policy of defeating them. And you have to support it. Not (and this is important) despite the impact on innocent Palestinians. But because of the impact on them. Because they need liberation and security from Hamas as much as any Israeli does.
Played the ball first time, just carried through to play the manI'm not sure it addresses any points on this thread at all.
But you don't visit this thread to engage in good faith debate. It's never been your style, and it's never likely to be.