Liverpool in fresh boycott

[WestStandLad]

Hannibal, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by explaining just how many supporters turn up at massive games without tickets. I'm sure you are well aware of this.

How many Seagulls were outside Highbury looking for tickets in 1983? Hundreds if not thousands.

Football fans will travel without tickets to any game anywhere in the World. Liverpool were allocated 25,000 tickets for the final in Istanbul in 05. Nearly 60,000 were in the ground.

The South Yorkshire Police would have been fully aware of the problems beforhand and did nothing. As has been previously stated, they allocated the much smaller Leppings Lane end of the ground to Liverpool, knowing that their numbers could be anything up to double that of Forrest.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

No it wasn't. The fatal crush was caused by the gates being opened outside the stadium allowing thousands of fans into an already full area of the ground. This was on police orders. No accountability lies with Liverpool fans.

What none whatsoever? Does not turning up to a game without a ticket in such large numbers at least warrant a portion of blame however small?

As I have already pointed out there were several empty stands designated for Liverpool fans that day.

Fans WITH tickets had been queuing for some time to get into the game.

Besides, are you seriously telling me Liverpool are the only team in history to have ticketless fans travel to an all ticket game?

 

[pasty]

You're queuing up to watch the Seagulls in an FA Cup Semi-final with only two turnstiles open and the time is 3:00pm. Suddenly the gates open. What are you going to do? Stand and wait knowing you're probably half an hour from the turnstile? Or get through the gate into the terrace ASAP?

I wouldn't have been there in the first place if I hadn't got a ticket. That is the point.

Yes - the police were stupid to open the gates and let them in, but if they had not been there in the first place without tickets, it would not have happened.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I wouldn't have been there in the first place if I hadn't got a ticket. That is the point.

Yes - the police were stupid to open the gates and let them in, but if they had not been there in the first place without tickets, it would not have happened.

There were thousands of fans outside WITH tickets. Do they deserve to be blamed.

 

[pasty]

There were thousands of fans outside WITH tickets. Do they deserve to be blamed.

Did I blame them? Er, no.

 

[northstandnorth]

Well why did they do that?

To try and relieve a dangerous situation outside the ground of liverpool fans trying to get in. The police were worried about the liverpool fans kicking off outside and so STUPIDLY let them in the ground when it was already full. Obviously the liverpool fans making their way into the ground were unaware it was already full as it is very difficult to tell the difference between a full stand and an empty one so they pilled in anyway.

Don't get me wrong I place 80% of the blame at the feet of the police. BUT liverpool fans were involved too.

the ground was not full,the fans had trouble getting through the 18 turnstiles allocated to them(forest had 46)the end allocated to liverpool became a bottle kneck as all the turnstiles allocated to liverpool fed from the same route hemmed in between housing and the river.effectively a funnel feeding down to leppings lane.
the police opened the gate to relieve the crush at the turnstiles and the fans went straight for a tunnell oposite the gate.having got onto the terrace they were unable to sread out because the terrace was divided into 3 sections by high chain link fences.

before opening the gate the police should have realised the risk of overpacking one section and directed fans to the two other tunnels at either end of the leppings lane stand.

attacking the fans over this disaster is apalling,the reason people died that day was because of bad planning and bad tactics by a police force that followed a country wide policy of regarding all fans as a scum and a threat to public order and a football association that allowed clubs to risk the lives of its customers with crap access to dilapadated grounds.

next you will be blaming bradford fans for killing their own with fag butts.

ANYONE who went to grounds in the 70's and 80's will have stories of near disasters and accidents waiting to happen.of being swept off their feet and carried along in the crush.i after an england game at wembley went down two flights of stairs without my feet touching the ground once.
we laughed about it then.we enjoyed the crowd surges at the goldstone during "knees up brighton town" and the massive crowd surges on the anfield cop we admired from the safety of match of the day.
we stopped laughing after hillsborough when we realised just how often those we thought were protecting us and keeping us safe,the police,the F.A.the council planners,the architects and the ground owners had played roulette with our lives and our safety.

 

[Lammy]

I understood that there have been massive efforts at reconciliation between the two clubs since. Which will, I guess always be wasted on those too small-minded to move on but they've been made nonetheless. Who exactly is meant to apologise to whom in order to accept "guilt" on the part of of whom? Utterly oversimplistic and unrealistic bullshit.

So is pointing the finger at the police. This is exactely the point I'm making. It is oversimplistic to simply say that the police f***ed up therefore it is there fault. It IS there fault, but it is not ALL their fault.

So if a news organisation with a grudge because it f***ed up was libelling Brighton fans, you'd defend it? That would make you a total wimp. I doubt you would act as spinelessly as that any more than the people behind this boycott are.

What the Sun did was unforgivable. I have every respect for Liverpool fans who boycott that rag. However, we are getting away from the point raised in this thread. Some bloke points out that Liverpool fans have a checkered history as much as they have a glorious one. This is a fair comment in my view. If this was Brighton with a similar history, yes I would defend his right to say it. At the end of the day it is one man's opinion and it ain't gonna make that much difference.

This is not a debate I'm willing to get into as it will always divide peoples opinion. Personally I think Liverpool have a lot to answer for for dragging the Engalish game through the mud in the eyes of the rest of the world.

 

[WestStandLad]

Well good on you Pasty. You are a stand up member of the community. I hope the World looks good from up there on your perch.

 

[Hannibal smith]

Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy caused primarily by bad policing, football fans being treated like scum (and therefore being fenced in), the impracticality of a huge game not being on TV that thousands if not millions of people would watch, no seating at the time, bad organisation (including H&S practices that would be laughed at now) and finally thousands of ticketless fans trying to get in. It’s only a small portion of blame but a small portion nonetheless. I understand why Liverpudlians are outraged by the Sun and will not longer buy it. The journalism was shocking and endemic of the attitude at the time that ‘all football supporters are scum’

My sympathy stops with this article when it refers to Heysel. People lost their lives. We were banned from European football for years. Our game went backwards, yet Liverpool fans are always regarded as some kind of Footballing Choir boys compared with the likes of Leeds and Millwall. I’ve never understood why that is. The original article can (justifiably) get annoyed with Hillsborough – It loses my sympathy when it tries to take the moral high ground over Heysel. It can’t and they shouldn’t try.

I take the point that ‘what if Hillsborough was Brighton fans’ I’d like to ask, What if it was Brighton fans being crushed under that wall in Heysel’

 

[Lammy]

the ground was not full,the fans had trouble getting through the 18 turnstiles allocated to them(forest had 46)the end allocated to liverpool became a bottle kneck as all the turnstiles allocated to liverpool fed from the same route hemmed in between housing and the river.effectively a funnel feeding down to leppings lane.
the police opened the gate to relieve the crush at the turnstiles and the fans went straight for a tunnell oposite the gate.having got onto the terrace they were unable to sread out because the terrace was divided into 3 sections by high chain link fences.

before opening the gate the police should have realised the risk of overpacking one section and directed fans to the two other tunnels at either end of the leppings lane stand.

attacking the fans over this disaster is apalling,the reason people died that day was because of bad planning and bad tactics by a police force that followed a country wide policy of regarding all fans as a scum and a threat to public order and a football association that allowed clubs to risk the lives of its customers with crap access to dilapadated grounds.

next you will be blaming bradford fans for killing their own with fag butts.

ANYONE who went to grounds in the 70's and 80's will have stories of near disasters and accidents waiting to happen.of being swept off their feet and carried along in the crush.i after an england game at wembley went down two flights of stairs without my feet touching the ground once.
we laughed about it then.we enjoyed the crowd surges at the goldstone during "knees up brighton town" and the massive crowd surges on the anfield cop we admired from the safety of match of the day.
we stopped laughing after hillsborough when we realised just how often those we thought were protecting us and keeping us safe,the police,the F.A.the council planners,the architects and the ground owners had played roulette with our lives and our safety.

That is a very accurate and excellent post. However, the fact remains at all of those incidents (with the exception of the Bradford fire) that the fans were involved. I've been in crowd crushes and it is usually caused by wankers at the back pushing unison shouting "HEAVE!!" or such like.

Any Liverpool fan at Hillborough without a ticket (yes I know not everyone outside the ground didn't have a ticket) pointing the finger at the police without acknowledging ANY responsibility themselves is just wrong IMHO.

 

[Lammy]

Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy caused primarily by bad policing, football fans being treated like scum (and therefore being fenced in), the impracticality of a huge game not being on TV that thousands if not millions of people would watch, no seating at the time, bad organisation (including H&S practices that would be laughed at now) and finally thousands of ticketless fans trying to get in. It’s only a small portion of blame but a small portion nonetheless. I understand why Liverpudlians are outraged by the Sun and will not longer buy it. The journalism was shocking and endemic of the attitude at the time that ‘all football supporters are scum’

My sympathy stops with this article when it refers to Heysel. People lost their lives. We were banned from European football for years. Our game went backwards, yet Liverpool fans are always regarded as some kind of Footballing Choir boys compared with the likes of Leeds and Millwall. I’ve never understood why that is. The original article can (justifiably) get annoyed with Hillsborough – It loses my sympathy when it tries to take the moral high ground over Heysel. It can’t and they shouldn’t try.

I take the point that ‘what if Hillsborough was Brighton fans’ I’d like to ask, What if it was Brighton fans being crushed under that wall in Heysel’

You have summed up my feeling far more articulately than I ever could. Thank you.

 

[WestStandLad]

But that ISN'T the point Lammy. They don't have a problem with anyone pointing out that Liverpool have a "checkered" history. Every club in the country has one.

The point is this prick is blaming Liverpool 'hooligans' for Hillsborough. This is completelyand utterly wrong. And as for not making much difference.. Dear oh dear. He's talking on a national TV show! To an audience who may not have much of an idea about what actually happened. What if next week he talks about how 'David Bellotti was the best thing to ever happen to Brighton FC. It was just the idiotic fans who never supported him'. Would that be OK because it was just one man's view, talking to people who don't really matter?

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

RE:Heysel

What actually happened at Heysel? I have vague memories of seeing one piece of footage concerning the disaster. In it the Italians run at the Liverpool fans, some carrying what look like fence posts. The liverpool fans then charge the Italians, the italians decide to get the hell out of the way, run back into the stands and then the wall collapses. Like I said, my memory is vague so I may have it completely wrong. Can anyone confirm or deny that this took place?

 

[WestStandLad]

More or less what you have written GNLF. A European cup final played in one of the oldest and most run down stadiums in the World with two sets of hooligans intent on causing trouble. Liverpool fans were to blame. Juventus fans were to blame. and quite possibly the biggest culprits who got away scott free were UEFA. Playing a game at that ground in that state was a disaster waiting to happen. Unfortunately it did.

 

[northstandnorth]

and if you want the real reason policing was so inept that day.
the usual chief plod with years of experience policing semi-finals had been suspended due to two of his officers dressing up in combats and balaclavas carrying fake guns "kidnapping" a new recruit for an initiation ceremony(a south yorks constabulary tradition apparantely) but this one complained and kicked up a stink.

so they gave the gig to some traffic plod who had no experience of football matches let alone policing them and he froze when asked what to do about the crush outside the turnstiles.

coincidentally i read somewhere that planning was so bad and turnstiles so few that if all the turnstiles allocated to liverpool fans worked at maximum capacity and all the fans had been outside at 2 o'clock they would have processed the last fan at 3.45

 

[Lammy]

But that ISN'T the point Lammy. They don't have a problem with anyone pointing out that Liverpool have a "checkered" history. Every club in the country has one.

The point is this prick is blaming Liverpool 'hooligans' for Hillsborough. This is completelyand utterly wrong. And as for not making much difference.. Dear oh dear. He's talking on a national TV show! To an audience who may not have much of an idea about what actually happened. What if next week he talks about how 'David Bellotti was the best thing to ever happen to Brighton FC. It was just the idiotic fans who never supported him'. Would that be OK because it was just one man's view, talking to people who don't really matter?

The two quotes are;

“directly causing the worst two disasters in English football history.”

This is a half truth on both counts. They were involved in one and caused the other along with Juve fans.

“there’s a disgusting side of Liverpool’s history that I’ll be happy to talk about.”

I have no problem with this. However, Chelsea also have a disgusting history. Along with most big clubs.

This bloke is obviously a bit of a 'shock jock'

 

[Kenhead]

With Heysel i don't know an awful lot i have to admit, but i was told that alot of the reason why there was trouble there was because what happened the previous year between and english and italian teams, may even have been the liverpool v roma game, so alot of english fans and not just liverpool fans went over there with the very intention to cause trouble.
I was told this by a liverpool fan tho, i'm to young to remeber that day but have watched the documentary and only really know what happened in the stadium.

 

[Rougvie]

What the Sun did was unforgivable. I have every respect for Liverpool fans who boycott that rag. However, we are getting away from the point raised in this thread. Some bloke points out that Liverpool fans have a checkered history as much as they have a glorious one. This is a fair comment in my view. If this was Brighton with a similar history, yes I would defend his right to say it. At the end of the day it is one man's opinion and it ain't gonna make that much difference.

 

[attila]

A point needs to be made about Heysel which is very often overlooked.

I was there (along with 3 other Albion fans) for the Belgium-Albania
qualifier a couple of years before the disaster. The stadium was in an absolutely disgraceful condition - I leaned on a crash barrier and the bloody thing toppled over! There is no way all those people would have died if the stadium had been given a proper inspection beforehand.

That's all.

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

A point needs to be made about Heysel which is very often overlooked.

I was there (along with 3 other Albion fans) for the Belgium-Albania
qualifier a couple of years before the disaster. The stadium was in an absolutely disgraceful condition - I leaned on a crash barrier and the bloody thing toppled over! There is no way all those people would have died if the stadium had been given a proper inspection beforehand.

That's all.

Fat fucker