Lisbon Treaty - How do you want the Irish to vote.

[Martinf]

Why are they unsuitable for office if they have been educated at Eton and Oxford? I am pretty sure the teaching standard is rather good and they were obviously intelligent enough to attend both..?

Yes. Money had nothing to do with it.

 

[looney]

I've said before, we are so far behind the rest of Europe in so many areas we will be better off joining them as opposed to distancing ourselves (and I do not mean befriending those far-right kranks Cameron has invited to his conference).

I happen to see the EU as being backward, protectionist and inward looking. Their are many commentators who say that the centre of economic gravity has shifted from the atlantic to the Pacific and EU will be left as some hick backwater.

There is so much evidence on this alone I wouldn't know where to begin cutting down your delusional fantacy.

Average growth rates, higher in asia and the USA. Higher levels of Employment and less unemployment. The ability to project military power. The ability to develope and apply new technology.

Its hard to find where the EU is ahead? Maybe Beuraucracy, corruption and lack of democracy.

 

[Brovion]

You mean each democratically elected government appoints a commissioner, in the same way that our democratically elected goverment appoints the prime minister.

What was your point again?

*Sigh* Don't be so obtuse, you know what my point is, but I'll spell it out again. In a sovereign parliamentary democracy a party can have a manifesto that says they intend to impose a tax on dog food and make the eating of whale blubber compulsory. You think 'yes, that sounds good' so you vote for them. They are duly elected and start to implement their manifesto pledges by introducing legislation that will be voted on by the House of Commons. In five years time you're thinking "Bloody hell I'm sick of this whale blubber, I'm going to vote for the other lot", the other lot duly get in and repeal the unpopular legislation.

In 'Europe' that is impossible. You cannot vote for a party (or a coallition of parties) to implement a legisaltive programme, the E.U. parliament is little more than a glorified talking shop to try and give a fig-leaf of democracy to a flawed process. As the role of the Commissioners is so important shouldn't we be allowed to vote for them directly? Scrap the useless European parliament elections and instead vote for the people who will really wield the power. It won't happen of course as we might vote for the 'wrong' people, so currently as you say they're appointed - but do you really believe the posts are given to the best candidates? Of course not, they're dished out as rewards to unwanted failures like Neil Kinnock or party hacks and timeservers such as Baroness Ashton. I've read your other posts (not on this subject) and I cannot believe that you are someone who thinks that political patronage is a good way of appointing people who wield real power.

Incidentally, one of the clauses of the Lisbon Treaty is to reduce the size of the Commission by a third - I'm not sure how they're going to rotate it but there will be times in the future when Britain will have NO representation on the Commission, not even a hack like Ashton!

Like I said to Martinf, it's the slow death of democracy. To the barricades!

 

[Brovion]

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

Well I can't see it myself, and I wrote it! If you're referring to the 1975 referendum (the only time we've voted on 'Europe' as a single issue as opposed to as part of a bundle of other party election pledges) that was a referendum on the European Econonomic Community (E.E.C.). The modern EU has been assembled without any further reference to the British people and bears absolutely NO resemblence to the old E.E.C. I said on page one that full of youthful idealism back in 1975 I'd campaigned for a 'Yes' vote; actively campaigned not just said I was in favour. If I'd known then that the E.E.C. was going to turn into the EU I'd have joined the Bennites there and then.

 

[Milton Keynes Seagull]

Well I can't see it myself, and I wrote it! If you're referring to the 1975 referendum (the only time we've voted on 'Europe' as a single issue as opposed to as part of a bundle of other party election pledges) that was a referendum on the European Econonomic Community (E.E.C.). The modern EU has been assembled without any further reference to the British people and bears absolutely NO resemblence to the old E.E.C. I said on page one that full of youthful idealism back in 1975 I'd campaigned for a 'Yes' vote; actively campaigned not just said I was in favour. If I'd known then that the E.E.C. was going to turn into the EU I'd have joined the Bennites there and then.

I was at the Get Britain Out rally at the Corn Exchange in 1975addressed by Enoch Powell, Michael Foot and others. There wasn't a "No Platform" policy by the fascists (sorry New left) then, although there were about 1,000 screaming class war rebels from Sussex University and various Brighton communes outside trying to stop democracy.

They've probably mostly made a fortune in the professions or the city and ended up in New Labour.

 

[Brovion]

I was at the Get Britain Out rally at the Corn Exchange in 1975addressed by Enoch Powell, Michael Foot and others. There wasn't a "No Platform" policy by the fascists (sorry New left) then, although there were about 1,000 screaming class war rebels from Sussex University and various Brighton communes outside trying to stop democracy.

They've probably mostly made a fortune in the professions or the city and ended up in New Labour.

I remember that! We weren't trying to stop it as such. merely point out that the 'No' lobby was an unholy alliance of Empire Loyalists and antediluvian socialists. I think I was more upset that Michael Foot (one of my heroes at the time) was opposed to internationalism.

 

[Milton Keynes Seagull]

I remember that! We weren't trying to stop it as such. merely point out that the 'No' lobby was an unholy alliance of Empire Loyalists and antediluvian socialists. I think I was more upset that Michael Foot (one of my heroes at the time) was opposed to internationalism.

I remember thinking at the time there was no way the "No" vote could win.

Apart from let us say the diverse views on the platform, the whole presentation was years out of date compared to the "Yes" campaign, which was slick, professional, up to date and tellingly had loads of money. The pro-EEC press made a great deal of the fact that the Communist Party and the National Front both wanted to get Britain out.

They never mentioned that Sir Oswald Mosley, Britain's most famous fascist was in favour of a United States of Europe!

 

[Brovion]

I remember thinking at the time there was no way the "No" vote could win.

Apart from let us say the diverse views on the platform, the whole presentation was years out of date compared to the "Yes" campaign, which was slick, professional, up to date and tellingly had loads of money. The pro-EEC press made a great deal of the fact that the Communist Party and the National Front both wanted to get Britain out.

They never mentioned that Sir Oswald Mosley, Britain's most famous fascist was in favour of a United States of Europe!

Indeed, in fact I'm indebted to the person who pointed out to me yesterday that opposition to the E.U. project STILL only comes from an unholy alliance of Empire Loyalists and antediluvian socialists - it's just that I've changed sides!. Ayway, I'm currently wearing my Morning Star 'Say No to the Euro!' badge, which I got from their stand at a Communist Party 'gathering' in Germany.

 

[Hunting 784561]

Theres a great quote from Dan Hannan, arch right winger, and general anti-European nut job in todays Torygraph :


“Labour's propagandists are salivating at the opportunity to paint the Tories as divided once again on Europe, with “hardline” – code for near-lunatic extremist – right-wingers cast as the pantomime villains.

“Behind you, Dave!” they call, less to warn him, than to make the public aware of the grotesques with whom he chooses to associate.

And there it is, that old calumny that to be Eurosceptic is to be right-wing, not just in a free-market sort of way, but in a hang ‘em, flog ‘em, and – whisper it behind closed doors – a “wogs begin at Calais” sort of way.


.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yep, that old chestnut about old, eurosceptic, little Englanders, borderline BNP right wing jackboot wearing nut jobs, and if proof were needed just take a look at this lot of UKIP supporting scumbags.


Bob Crow – RMT general secretary
John Hendy QC – Leading human rights lawyer
Professor Mary Davis – Leading labour historian
Kevin Nolan – Visteon convener, Enfield site
Syed Islam – Social worker and Bangladeshi community activist
Onay Kasab – Greenwich UNISON branch secretary (pc)
John Rowe – Health worker and former election agent for Peter Shore MP
Nick Wrack – socialist barrister
David John Nellist – Socialist Party Councillor and Coventry MP from 1983 to 1992
Dyal Singh Bagri – President, Indian Workers Association (pc)
Malcolm Gribbin – Retired teacher, school governor
Jo Stevenson – YCL general secretary
Peter McLaren – Alliance for Green Socialism
Andy Chaffer – Birmingham trades council
John McEwan – Lindsey Oil Refinery worker
Avtar Sadiq – Unity for Peace and Socialism party
Jean Thorpe – UNISON NEC member
Shangara Singh Gahonia – Unity for Peace and Socialism party
Laurence Platt – UNITE branch secretary (pc)
Rob Griffiths – Communist Party of Britain general secretary
Rob Williams – Unite convener of the Linemar plant in Swansea
Laura Picand – UNISON Wales staff member
Trevor Jones – Deeside trades council secretary
Roger Bannister – Unison NEC member
Les Skarrot – FBU executive committee
Craig Johnston – RMT executive
Alec MacFadden – President of Merseyside trades council
Steve Radford – Liberal Party councillor
Lynn Worthington – Community and healthcare campaigner
John Metcalfe – Former deputy Labour leader of Carlisle council
Harry Smith – One of the 47 surcharged Liverpool Labour councillors
John Foster – Scottish Campaign Against Euro Federalism secretary
Tommy Sheridan – Solidarity Co-Convenor
Leah Ganley – Student at Dundee University
Stuart Hyslop – Retired seafarer RMT
Ajit Singh Uppal – Indian Workers Association (pc)
Tom Morrison – Secretary Clydebank TUC
Keith Gibson – Lindsey oil refinery worker
Celia Foote – Alliance for Green Socialism
Councillor Jackie Grunsell – Save Huddersfield NHS councillor
Peter March – RMT regional secretary
Mike Davies – Alliance for Green Socialism secretary
Juliet Marie Boddington – Alliance for Green Socialism activist
Professor Dave Hill – Former East Sussex Labour Group leader
Garry Hassell – RMT executive committee
Kevin Hayes – Ford worker
Owen Morris –Construction worker and supporter of Lindsey and Olympic site protests
Gawain Little – Teacher and CND National Council member
Robert Wilkinson – NUT Wokingham and District Secretary
Jacqui Berry – Medway trades council president
Nick Wright – Graphic designer and teacher
Nick Chaffey – Youth worker
Sarah Wrack – Student Sussex University
Brian Denny – Journalist and democracy campaigner
Frank Jepson – Visteon factory convener, Basildon
Steve Glennon – shop steward at GSK in Ware, Hertfordshire
Phil Katz – Author and designer
Eleanor Donne – UNISON steward (pc), local government worker
Pete Relph – Environmental campaigner
Ron Rodwell – Former CWU activist RMT staff rep
Martin Levy – Newcastle trades council president
Hannah Walter – UNISON shop steward (pc)
Peter Pinkney – RMT activist
Alex Gordon – RMT executive committee
Roger Davey – Health worker
Rachel Lynch – NUT activist (pc)
Nick Quirk – RMT executive committee
John Chambers – Retired T&G union official
Paul Dyer – Barnstaple trades council secretary

This bunch of right wing, little Englander nut jobs all rallied behind statements such as the following:

"Gordon Brown’s government reneged on Labour’s manifesto promise to hold a referendum and instead forced the treaty through parliament".

"Politicians across Europe hold their electorates in contempt: refusing to hold a referendum on the Treaty despite voters in France, the Netherlands and Ireland rejecting their plans for an undemocratic, neo-liberal superstate".

That's why they all stood as MEPs for No2EU - Yes to Democracy.

Got to love Nick Wrack's job..................."socialist barrister" which must be an oxymoron?

 

[Brovion]

Yep, that old chestnut about old, eurosceptic, little Englanders, borderline BNP right wing jackboot wearing nut jobs, and if proof were needed just take a look at this lot of UKIP supporting scumbags.


...

Technically they're not UKIP though are they Fergus?. That IS for the 'wogs start at Calais' brigade.

 

[jonburns]

Well looks like Dave the Chameleon will be admitting he won't be holding a referendum on Lisbon this week. That means that the Treaty is certain to come into force soon. It's clear that the public were intentionally shut out of the debate over Lisbon because EU leaders couldn't risk it going down the drain ala the Constitution. But now that it's a fait accompli, there are some plus points to it.

The citizens' initiative for example, where 1million signatures can force the Commission to take notice of an issue, is the first time that EU citizens have had the chance of directly addressing the Commission (instead of having to go through the arduous process of lobbying all manner of representatives first). There are already campaigns going to utilise this (e.g. Home / right2bet / Fighting for an EU citizen's right to choose on online gambling law) and I do think it's a positive thing.

 

[jonburns]

If anybody wants to sign the right2bet petition on citizens' gambling rights in the EU, but wants to do so by scrawling their name all over a semi-naked girls body (i have no idea who such a thing would appeal to ) then see the naked petition - right2bet

 

[Scampi]

Its hard to find where the EU is ahead? Maybe Beuraucracy, corruption and lack of democracy.

So you're arguing that China is more democratic, less bureaucratic and less corrupt than the EU?

 

[beorhthelm]

So you're arguing that China is more democratic, less bureaucratic and less corrupt than the EU?

i dont know much about internal Chinese politics (doubt anyone round here does), but the EU does set a very low bar in those areas.

 

[jonburns]

Anybody who thinks the PRC is more democratic, less bureaucratic and less corrupt than the EU is absolutely barking mad. China only allows elections on a very, very limited basis and only ever at the local level. And, even then, it's a one-party state with a paucity of civil rights and uncertainty of rule of law. It's got an incredibly thick bureaucracy and is regularly embarrassed (usually by media operating out of HK) about corruption scandals.

However, whilst trumping China on these terms is not really much of an achievement for the EU. We should be rating the EU against our own measuring sticks, not China! It's reasonable for us to to demand openness, fairness, consistency and responsiveness from the EU - which is why I encourage people to visit and sign the petition at Home / right2bet / Fighting for an EU citizen's right to choose now.

 

[Jim D]

Anybody who thinks the PRC is more democratic, less bureaucratic and less corrupt than the EU is absolutely barking mad. China only allows elections on a very, very limited basis and only ever at the local level. And, even then, it's a one-party state with a paucity of civil rights and uncertainty of rule of law. It's got an incredibly thick bureaucracy and is regularly embarrassed (usually by media operating out of HK) about corruption scandals.

However, whilst trumping China on these terms is not really much of an achievement for the EU. We should be rating the EU against our own measuring sticks, not China! It's reasonable for us to to demand openness, fairness, consistency and responsiveness from the EU - which is why I encourage people to visit and sign the petition at Home / right2bet / Fighting for an EU citizen's right to choose now.

What did you think of the game on Saturday, Jon? Did you go? Did you know who we were playing (without checking in the paper or online)?

 

[beorhthelm]

What did you think of the game on Saturday, Jon? Did you go? Did you know who we were playing (without checking in the paper or online)?

i reckon he might have had a bet on it. its a funny campaign, the UK have most open betting markets so least effected yet most the support comes from here i wonder how many even understand the issue but just signed.