Lisbon Treaty - How do you want the Irish to vote.

[Cian]

Ok. Fair enough. Half my family is Irish and I know some would have voted no. The point I'm trying to make (probably badly) is that I'm not seeing reasoned argument, most of the time, from the no crowd - just the type of stuff that you see in those newspapers. If someone can give me ten things that I could do before we joined the EU that I cant do now that has affected my standard of living then I'll join the no crowd.

There was an absolute vacuum of reasoned argument from the Yes side either here.

The main campaigns consisted of one of the two government parties recycling last time outs posters (which suggested that voting No was voting to leave the EU) because they were short of cash; and the second government party refusing the campaign at all; and the two main opposition parties putting up pictures of their leaders with such wonderful slogans as "Its really that important!" (Labour, with no explanation about the importance at all)

 

[little al]

The French national flag has the red and blue panels connected with velcro so the can rip them off quickly in times of trouble.

 

[Brovion]

What 'slow suffocation of democracy'? Examples please.

Are you for real? That's a bit like me saying "There are millions of starving people in Africa" and you replying "Well name one then."

I could turn your question on its head and ask you to provide one example where the EC has made life more democratic, but you asked first so, ok, one example: The European Commission is unelected, each member state appoints a commissioner. All European legislation (the 'EU rules') that effect us have to be proposed by the Commission, they cannot come from the European parliament. The Council and other bodies can suggest legislation, but the Commissioners do not have to accept these proposals. In other words our laws no longer come from an elected body but from a self-perpetuating political elite.

There is of course a very good reason why the EU is undemocratic - it would never work otherwise. That's partly what the Treaty has been about to remove national vetoes and to bring in majority voting so that the entire process can be streamlined without awkward nations like Britain derailing everything. This means that in the future, even more so than now, we will have laws imposed on us that not only have we had no say in framing but to which we may be actively opposed. A forthcoming example may be the 'super-juggernaut' lorries which Westminster has rejected as unsuitable for British roads but 'Brussels' wants to see introduced throughout Europe.

And at no point since 1975 have we, Britain, had any say in this, to repeat, slow suffocation of democracy.

 

[little al]

Are you for real? That's a bit like me saying "There are millions of starving people in Africa" and you replying "Well name one then."

I could turn your question on its head and ask you to provide one example where the EC has made life more democratic, but you asked first so, ok, one example: The European Commission is unelected, each member state appoints a commissioner. All European legislation (the 'EU rules') that effect us have to be proposed by the Commission, they cannot come from the European parliament. The Council and other bodies can suggest legislation, but the Commissioners do not have to accept these proposals. In other words our laws no longer come from an elected body but from a self-perpetuating political elite.

There is of course a very good reason why the EU is undemocratic - it would never work otherwise. That's partly what the Treaty has been about to remove national vetoes and to bring in majority voting so that the entire process can be streamlined without awkward nations like Britain derailing everything. This means that in the future, even more so than now, we will have laws imposed on us that not only have we had no say in framing but to which we may be actively opposed. A forthcoming example may be the 'super-juggernaut' lorries which Westminster has rejected as unsuitable for British roads but 'Brussels' wants to see introduced throughout Europe.

And at no point since 1975 have we, Britain, had any say in this, to repeat, slow suffocation of democracy.

Brilliant post.

 

[Martinf]

Are you for real? That's a bit like me saying "There are millions of starving people in Africa" and you replying "Well name one then."

I could turn your question on its head and ask you to provide one example where the EC has made life more democratic, but you asked first so, ok, one example: The European Commission is unelected, each member state appoints a commissioner. All European legislation (the 'EU rules') that effect us have to be proposed by the Commission, they cannot come from the European parliament. The Council and other bodies can suggest legislation, but the Commissioners do not have to accept these proposals. In other words our laws no longer come from an elected body but from a self-perpetuating political elite.

There is of course a very good reason why the EU is undemocratic - it would never work otherwise. That's partly what the Treaty has been about to remove national vetoes and to bring in majority voting so that the entire process can be streamlined without awkward nations like Britain derailing everything. This means that in the future, even more so than now, we will have laws imposed on us that not only have we had no say in framing but to which we may be actively opposed. A forthcoming example may be the 'super-juggernaut' lorries which Westminster has rejected as unsuitable for British roads but 'Brussels' wants to see introduced throughout Europe.

And at no point since 1975 have we, Britain, had any say in this, to repeat, slow suffocation of democracy.

You make some valid points. And it's good to read something that doesnt refer to bendy bananas or the usual rule britannia I hate johnny foreigner rubbish. If you can convince me that leaving the EU would be good for British jobs and our economy and ultimately our standard of living - then I'll join the no crowd.

 

[cannedheat]

Who gives a f*** wich way the bogtrotters vote, there is still a long way till Sturmbannführer Blair gets control, if he ever doe's.

 

[little al]

If you want to oppose Blair getting the Presidency you can sign this petition.
No to Tony Blair as President of the European Union Council

 

[Martinf]

The French national flag has the red and blue panels connected with velcro so the can rip them off quickly in times of trouble.

Good post. Especially when you consider those French people who were in the resistance during the war, some of whom were tortured and murdered by the nazis because they were helping the allies. Prick.

 

[cannedheat]

Good post. Especially when you consider those French people who were in the resistance during the war, some of whom were tortured and murdered by the nazis because they were helping the allies. Prick.

What all sixhundred of them, the French bottled it and gave up without a fight, I think they became the Vichy. PRICK.

 

[Martinf]

What all sixhundred of them, the French bottled it and gave up without a fight, I think they became the Vichy. PRICK.

Six, 600 or 6,000 - it doesn't matter. Some of them didn't 'bottle it' and give up. And guess what - quite a few 'Bogtrotters' (as you put in an ealier post) fought for Britain during World War one and two. Remove your head from your arse and try to engage one of your two brain cells.

 

[little al]

Good post. Especially when you consider those French people who were in the resistance during the war, some of whom were tortured and murdered by the nazis because they were helping the allies. Prick.

It was a joke.

 

[Martinf]

It was a joke.

OK. Soz

 

[little al]

OK. Soz

No prob.

 

[cannedheat]

Six, 600 or 6,000 - it doesn't matter. Some of them didn't 'bottle it' and give up. And guess what - quite a few 'Bogtrotters' (as you put in an ealier post) fought for Britain during World War one and two. Remove your head from your arse and try to engage one of your two brain cells.

Can I have the brain cell back that you are using, please make sure you have recharged it, Not quite a few just a few in WWI and many brave NI men and women in WW2

 

[beorhthelm]

If you can convince me that leaving the EU would be good for British jobs and our economy and ultimately our standard of living - then I'll join the no crowd.

do you have any evidence further political integration will encourage jobs in the UK? could you also explain, other than the superfical benefits of the booze cruise, what EEC and EU membership has ever done for the standard of living in the UK? we and Germans pay for others increases, we are net contributors so its hardly a fiscal benefit for us.

why does being against policital involvement mean leaving the EU? why is that arguement even made? Norway, Iceland and Switzerland seem to do fine with their own laws a free trade with Europe. its does have to be all in or all out, like some in the pro-europe seem to suggest.

 

[Martinf]

Can I have the brain cell back that you are using, please make sure you have recharged it, Not quite a few just a few in WWI and many brave NI men and women in WW2

"Note quite a few just a few"

Could you do a rewrite for those of us who studied English at school?

 

[Hunting 784561]

The reason it is impossible to have a sensible discussion about the EU is because of Little Englanders still fighting the second world war in their tiny minds.

Until we can get past that point, I really do give up.

 

[xenophon]

Big government is bad, even bigger and further away government is even worse. A bad day all round.

Now, back to the football, what aboot dem Rangers today?

 

[Gwylan]

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland seem to do fine with their own laws a free trade with Europe.

Iceland doing fine? The country that nearly went bankrupt?

And which is so happy with life outside the EU that it applied to join the European Union in July this year.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

It's good to see "Dave" Cameron clinging on to the remote prospect of running an anti-Europe referendum in the UK by now putting pressure on the Czech president not to ratify the Lisbon treaty before a UK general election is held.

Make your mind up, Dave. Do you want to run this country? Or are you happy to hand over the key decision to Prague?