Justice

[BadFish]

Phew! Don't we all have similar yet ultimately conflicting ideas and viewpoints! The first question seems to be how hard on these miscreants should we be in a pleaded guilty or convicted scenario? Well, most of us seem to favour harsh sentences, me included. I must ask though how many of us think past that thought? For example, what happens to these people AFTER we have incarcerated them? Are we to go back to the birch and the aimless turnscrew? Are we to just focus on the fact we want the loss of liberty as punishment be over taken by physical compulsion and physical threat on top of that loss of liberty? An indication on how we would be if we went down that path. Believe it or not over 10 million people in this country have some form of criminal record. 10 Million. Thats a lot of jobs and taxes if they were not able, upon release. to regain employment. The rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 was introduced to enable those trying to reconcile themselves back into normal society the protection they needed to do so. Since then we have the introduction of the CRB check which is all encompassing and which is being totally abused by employers and in my opinion rides rough shod over the actual legislation of 1974. The result? 10 million scared of applying for jobs, denied jobs and declared personna non gratia as far as the 'majority' are concerned. Social result? 10 million resentful and dependent benefit claimants that have absolututely NO chance of meaningfull employment or future.

So is there a viable alternative to prison and criminal records which appeases the 'string em up' brigade and the hand wringers?

How about hard labour cleaning up their mess 10 hours a day, tagged at home by 7. Maybe not for all offenders but maybe first timers. They would get to meet and talk to some of the people whose lives they f***ed up, they might even develop a work ethic and learn some skills.

 

[HovaGirl]

your logic here is that because Greece is more corrupt , then Britain isn't corrupt at all? Sorry I can't follow that logic.

In comparison, British corruption is infant-league. It doesn't matter where you go or what you do in Greece, they're all corrupt. All that Euro money fed to Greece in time for the 2004 Olympics - well, most of it went into the pockets of big businessmen. They bought cheaper paint and other materials, so the traffic lines painted in the road last only a fortnight instead of months. Builders even buy cheaper sewage materials, so that instead of buying a decent sewer pipe, they buy a narrower one at 5cm width, thus, everything gets stuck, so, you have to put your shitty toilet paper in a pedal bin, rather than down the loo, while your "produce" gets stuck. I know of one company which had a visit from the VAT tax man to check they were doing everything within the law. Gimme several hundred euros, said the taxman, and I'll pass you.

 

[The Rivet]

So is there a viable alternative to prison and criminal records which appeases the 'string em up' brigade and the hand wringers?

How about hard labour cleaning up their mess 10 hours a day, tagged at home by 7. Maybe not for all offenders but maybe first timers. They would get to meet and talk to some of the people whose lives they f***ed up, they might even develop a work ethic and learn some skills.

Badfish, I dont want to fall out with you. I am, to my shame, a previous convict, well over 27yrs ago! No trouble at all since then and my sentence was loss of liberty for the amount of time deemed appropriate by the judge. I personally met a victim of the crimes for which I was convicted during one of my five sentences and it is to her bravery upon meeting me, she was 78 I was 19 that changed my life. However, now, in todays reality, with CRB checks UNchecked! and even though I have been clean for over 27yrs and should be protected by the rehabilitation act, I cannot apply for a job because, they want a CRB that tells them what I did over 27yrs ago! Result, I get NO interviews. Fortunately I dont have to rely on the benevolence of the unforgiving!

 

[The Rivet]

Badfish, the only way that we can appease the string em up brigade and those that preach that people have to be rehabilitated is to make sure that details are not public knowledge, unfortunately, that has been supperseeded by the 'right to know' brigade.

 

[BadFish]

Badfish, I dont want to fall out with you. I am, to my shame, a previous convict, well over 27yrs ago! No trouble at all since then and my sentence was loss of liberty for the amount of time deemed appropriate by the judge. I personally met a victim of the crimes for which I was convicted during one of my five sentences and it is to her bravery upon meeting me, she was 78 I was 19 that changed my life. However, now, in todays reality, with CRB checks UNchecked! and even though I have been clean for over 27yrs and should be protected by the rehabilitation act, I cannot apply for a job because, they want a CRB that tells them what I did over 27yrs ago! Result, I get NO interviews. Fortunately I dont have to rely on the benevolence of the unforgiving!

I see us in agreement here in the main Rivet. I think that your experience goes against the ideals of justice. That once you have served your time and done your punishment you should be able to and given the means to create a decent life for your self. Without this the desire to reoffend must be overwhelming, which is reflection in the reoffending rates. I have nothing but respect for you or anyone else who manages to turn their life around and believe that people should be given the opportunity and encouragement to reform.

What I was suggesting was an alternative to prison and a criminal records. I was actually think of your story when i suggested getting people to work in the areas they damages and to meet the people affected.

 

[The Rivet]

Thanks for the understanding Badfish. How do we go about changing the current situation with offenders? Well, I really do not have any worries about stiff sentences at all. You commit the crime, you do the time, simples as they say in the advert! The trouble comes when you cant ever avoid your past because of the publics overwhelming desire for 'knowledge'. If anyone can check on your 'bad' history over any given amount of time then you will forever be classed as a 'criminal'. I can factor out kiddie beasts and cop killlers and rapists but, why should anyone know about a car someone took over a quarter of a century ago?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Thanks for the understanding Badfish. How do we go about changing the current situation with offenders? Well, I really do not have any worries about stiff sentences at all. You commit the crime, you do the time, simples as they say in the advert! The trouble comes when you cant ever avoid your past because of the publics overwhelming desire for 'knowledge'. If anyone can check on your 'bad' history over any given amount of time then you will forever be classed as a 'criminal'. I can factor out kiddie beasts and cop killlers and rapists but, why should anyone know about a car someone took over a quarter of a cetury ago?

The CRB system isn't supposed to exclude everyone with a criminal record from ever again achieving employment and it shouldn't be used like that. It's supposed to give employers information about previous convictions (and cautions) and allow the employer to assess whether there is any RELEVANT background information that would give a GENUINE reason for concern. If there isn't, then there is no reason why a job offer can't be confirmed, after a sensible discussion with the applicant.

Sadly, there are a large number of employers who don't properly comply with the system. But there are also many who do.

Good luck to anyone who needs it, I say.

 

[The Rivet]

The CRB system isn't supposed to exclude everyone with a criminal record from ever again achieving employment and it shouldn't be used like that. It's supposed to give employers information about previous convictions (and cautions) and allow the employer to assess whether there is any RELEVANT background information that would give a GENUINE reason for concern. If there isn't, then there is no reason why a job offer can't be confirmed, after a sensible discussion with the applicant.

Sadly, there are a large number of employers who don't properly comply with the system. But there are also many who do.

Good luck to anyone who needs it, I say.

Lets put it this way. Even though I have a previous conviction (or two) because I have sufficient means to employ others I now get to see details of other inhabitants lives, they dont get to see mine, I am now paying the bills remember! I am, according to the government employing people, an entrapreneur and am therefore to be lorded. Regardless I am a previous crook, my employees cant check me but, I have every right to check them? F888k that!

 

[HovaGirl]

Badfish, I dont want to fall out with you. I am, to my shame, a previous convict, well over 27yrs ago! No trouble at all since then and my sentence was loss of liberty for the amount of time deemed appropriate by the judge. I personally met a victim of the crimes for which I was convicted during one of my five sentences and it is to her bravery upon meeting me, she was 78 I was 19 that changed my life. However, now, in todays reality, with CRB checks UNchecked! and even though I have been clean for over 27yrs and should be protected by the rehabilitation act, I cannot apply for a job because, they want a CRB that tells them what I did over 27yrs ago! Result, I get NO interviews. Fortunately I dont have to rely on the benevolence of the unforgiving!

Rivet, I applaud your candour on these threads. Do you think it was meeting your victim which helped rehabilitate you, or the thought of going back to prison later, if you continued to commit offences? (Serious question, even if it isn't tactfully put.)

 

[HovaGirl]

Thanks for the understanding Badfish. How do we go about changing the current situation with offenders? Well, I really do not have any worries about stiff sentences at all. You commit the crime, you do the time, simples as they say in the advert! The trouble comes when you cant ever avoid your past because of the publics overwhelming desire for 'knowledge'. If anyone can check on your 'bad' history over any given amount of time then you will forever be classed as a 'criminal'. I can factor out kiddie beasts and cop killlers and rapists but, why should anyone know about a car someone took over a quarter of a century ago?

That's part of the problem today - the Right to Know. Sometimes, I think the Great British Public is baffled when it has too much information. Part of it, they don't understand, and unless they have a psychology degree, they're never going to understand that the mentality which makes a daring politician, is possibly the same mentality which takes a chance with women or his expense account. That isn't to excuse politicians, but ever since NOTW started spying on politicians' love-nests and champagne receipts, we have had fewer and fewer politicians with clout. We've been left with the nerds and wimps who couldn't lead a pee-up in a brewery for the simple reason that they are too saintly.

 

[HovaGirl]

The CRB system isn't supposed to exclude everyone with a criminal record from ever again achieving employment and it shouldn't be used like that. It's supposed to give employers information about previous convictions (and cautions) and allow the employer to assess whether there is any RELEVANT background information that would give a GENUINE reason for concern. If there isn't, then there is no reason why a job offer can't be confirmed, after a sensible discussion with the applicant.

Sadly, there are a large number of employers who don't properly comply with the system. But there are also many who do.

Good luck to anyone who needs it, I say.

I could well be wrong, but I thought a (UK) criminal record was wiped after 10 years?

 

[The Rivet]

Rivet, I applaud your candour on these threads. Do you think it was meeting your victim which helped rehabilitate you, or the thought of going back to prison later, if you continued to commit offences? (Serious question, even if it isn't tactfully put.)

Meeting the victim, these was something muted many years ago. Some misread it as restorative justice instead of incarceration. I met 'my' victim whilst actually serving a sentence. I guess I had an epithany. I never offended again. The authorities and prison regeme couldn't touch me, the physical assaults couldn't and I sure as hell wasn't going to bow down to those I considered an enemy! Enter my victim, absoluetly charming. Frightened as hell at meeting me but had that world war two spirit, that inner conviction that sureness of peity. I was awestruck, she was phenomenal. We were friends, in letters, till she died. The trouble is this. I was once asked by BBC Radio Kent (broadcast too) whilst a prisoner in Rochester, if this scheme would be good for the whole prison population on a compulsory basis. My answer, unfortunately, and broadcast live on air, was that I thought the intelligence level amonst the inmates was too low for them to grasp the significance of the sheme. The result? The prisoners who listened wanted to beat me!.....Hmmm

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I could well be wrong, but I thought a (UK) criminal record was wiped after 10 years?

Not as far as enhanced CRB checks are concerned.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

That's part of the problem today - the Right to Know.

The public doesn't have the right to know about criminal convictions that get reported on CRB checks. All they have a right to know is that an organisation that employs people who come into contact with children or vulnerable adults has undertaken CRB checks on its staff. The content of those checks is confidential.

 

[The Rivet]

I could well be wrong, but I thought a (UK) criminal record was wiped after 10 years?

Yes under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 a conviction can be classed as spent after a certain period which also depends on your length of sentence and crime. Unfortunately for 10 million people that bastard Roy Whiting killed that innocent Sarah payne and the campaign was on to 'KNOW' details now, I am not saying that is wrong in the circumstances like kiddie beasts or rapists and cop killers but it has now become the accepted norm that anyone has a right to know what happened to anyone at anytime in their lives! What they hell happened to privacy? Or the right to be rehabilitated? America has 3 strikes and your out, thanks to CRB, we have One strike and your out! Obviously I dont agree with the stauts quo. I cant even travel to my Aunts funeral in California because I was jailed over 27yrs ago. You can see why so many people are disaffected with life, remember 10 million in the Uk have something they may wish to forget!

 

[The Rivet]

The public doesn't have the right to know about criminal convictions that get reported on CRB checks. All they have a right to know is that an organisation that employs people who come into contact with children or vulnerable adults has undertaken CRB checks on its staff. The content of those checks is confidential.

thats Rubbish, put yourself in the position of the employer. You may be magnanimous but, 95% are not. Even charity shops are demanding a CRB, my wife applied. You dont agree no job! The thinest excuse is being used to demand a CRB, FACT, indesputable. On top of that my friend, I have been sentenced to a lot of things and so I applied for my CRB to check what it said. Regardless that it was over 27yrs ago, every single incident was listed in that report! I have NO prospect of official employment if a CRB is required and, regardless of what you think, they are being demanded everywhere. The statute may say one thing but the reality is another matter. I dont think you will find I am wrong.

 

[HovaGirl]

Meeting the victim, these was something muted many years ago. Some misread it as restorative justice instead of incarceration. I met 'my' victim whilst actually serving a sentence. I guess I had an epithany. I never offended again. The authorities and prison regeme couldn't touch me, the physical assaults couldn't and I sure as hell wasn't going to bow down to those I considered an enemy! Enter my victim, absoluetly charming. Frightened as hell at meeting me but had that world war two spirit, that inner conviction that sureness of peity. I was awestruck, she was phenomenal. We were friends, in letters, till she died. The trouble is this. I was once asked by BBC Radio Kent (broadcast too) whilst a prisoner in Rochester, if this scheme would be good for the whole prison population on a compulsory basis. My answer, unfortunately, and broadcast live on air, was that I thought the intelligence level amonst the inmates was too low for them to grasp the significance of the sheme. The result? The prisoners who listened wanted to beat me!.....Hmmm

Fascinating. From reading your posts, I perceive you as an highly intelligent person (probably a man!). I don't know your life history, background, etc, but would hazzard a guess that you "went off the rails" or "got in with the wrong crowd". Basically put, you probably weren't the "type" we would normally see in prison. In coming face-to-face with your victim, you met a person, not a statistic. She had a life, children, sisters, or used to work at the Theatre Royal or wherever. She became real. Your actions had hurt her, yet she was stoic enough to see it as one of the adventures or hazards of life that you came along and spoilt. Yet, in the end, she forgave you, so you forgave yourself, moved on and made something of yourself. You had found your conscience. Your fellow inmates had no such luxury, for they had long ago lost their consciences and had not the wit (or intelligence, as you put it) to understand the consequences of their actions.

Now, if that is a wrong assumption, then you didn't go "off the rails", but lived as your peer group lived, on the fringes of society, with a paranoid belief that everything was against you, and it wasn't your fault. But the same applies when you met your victim. You found your conscience and moved on, for you had the intelligence to do so.

So the question is, how can some rehabilitate themselves, as you did, and others can't? Is it a matter of intelligence, or of conscience? Or is it a matter of stupidity or paranoia? (I don't know the answer but it is an interesting subject, particularly with reference to the looters of last weekend. Will most of them have their careers as criminals stopped in their tracks? Or will most of them try again another time? Again, I don't know the answer.)

 

[Lord Bracknell]

thats Rubbish, put yourself in the position of the employer. You may be magnanimous but, 95% are not. Even charity shops are demanding a CRB, my wife applied. You dont agree no job! The thinest excuse is being used to demand a CRB, FACT, indesputable. On top of that my friend, I have been sentenced to a lot of things and so I applied for my CRB to check what it said. Regardless that it was over 27yrs ago, every single incident was listed in that report! I have NO prospect of official employment if a CRB is required and, regardless of what you think, they are being demanded everywhere. The statute may say one thing but the reality is another matter. I dont think you will find I am wrong.

I am an employer - at an organisation that provides services to children and vulnerable adults. Having a criminal conviction doesn't prevent people working for us, either in theory or in practice.

I grant you that a lot of employers are over zealous, though.

 

[The Rivet]

Fascinating. From reading your posts, I perceive you as an highly intelligent person (probably a man!). I don't know your life history, background, etc, but would hazzard a guess that you "went off the rails" or "got in with the wrong crowd". Basically put, you probably weren't the "type" we would normally see in prison. In coming face-to-face with your victim, you met a person, not a statistic. She had a life, children, sisters, or used to work at the Theatre Royal or wherever. She became real. Your actions had hurt her, yet she was stoic enough to see it as one of the adventures or hazards of life that you came along and spoilt. Yet, in the end, she forgave you, so you forgave yourself, moved on and made something of yourself. You had found your conscience. Your fellow inmates had no such luxury, for they had long ago lost their consciences and had not the wit (or intelligence, as you put it) to understand the consequences of their actions.

Now, if that is a wrong assumption, then you didn't go "off the rails", but lived as your peer group lived, on the fringes of society, with a paranoid belief that everything was against you, and it wasn't your fault. But the same applies when you met your victim. You found your conscience and moved on, for you had the intelligence to do so.

So the question is, how can some rehabilitate themselves, as you did, and others can't? Is it a matter of intelligence, or of conscience? Or is it a matter of stupidity or paranoia? (I don't know the answer but it is an interesting subject, particularly with reference to the looters of last weekend. Will most of them have their careers as criminals stopped in their tracks? Or will most of them try again another time? Again, I don't know the answer.)

Cant repond, in tears, dont mind admitting

 

[HovaGirl]

thats Rubbish, put yourself in the position of the employer. You may be magnanimous but, 95% are not. Even charity shops are demanding a CRB, my wife applied. You dont agree no job! The thinest excuse is being used to demand a CRB, FACT, indesputable. On top of that my friend, I have been sentenced to a lot of things and so I applied for my CRB to check what it said. Regardless that it was over 27yrs ago, every single incident was listed in that report! I have NO prospect of official employment if a CRB is required and, regardless of what you think, they are being demanded everywhere. The statute may say one thing but the reality is another matter. I dont think you will find I am wrong.

Peeds are vile, make no mistake, but not everyone who comes into contact with youngsters are peeds. Yet there seems to be a national knee-jerk panic attack which sees peeds round every corner. This idea is partly propagated by the media, for the more they write about their activities, the more new peeds discover a predilection for it, which they may never have had, if they hadn't read about these things in the papers. The same is true of the recent riots and lootings, where 24-hour TV has to fill their slots, so they go out looking for it, waiting for it, hoping for it, until it turns up, because the TV said it would. And this tiny, perverted peed minority of society affects the rest, such as your wife. From what you say, how many of those looters had tried to find jobs, but couldn't, because the CRB would have something on them? It's a social minefield. You do your time, take your punishment, re-evaluate your life and become an honest citizen, but it lives with you for ever. I have to admit, it's not something I've really thought about before, but it strikes me that rehabilitation will be impossible if your history is with you everywhere you go.