JFK - The Programme last night on BBC2

[Rambo]

Pretty much put paid to all the conspiracy theories.

Anyone see it?
I thought it was very factually entertaining.

Slated the Oliver Stone film as typical hollywood hype.

They said that all the documents were released from the archives after the film was made as it caused so many problems. I wasnt aware of this until last night.

It seems after 40 years no-one can come up with evidence to disprove it was Oswald that killed him.

Interesting stuff - could only happen in the States!

or if your a British Princess.

So anyone know any interesting conspiracy theories?

 

[Hannibal smith]

I watched it as well. I'm amazed at the conspiracy theories related to this incident after watching this bearing in mind that absolutely everything pointed to Lee Harvey Oswald killing him and there is nothing to prove otherwise.

Excellent Program.

 

[fatbadger]

Strikes me the issue is not whether Oswald was involved, but rather whether he was acting alone. The debates seem to be "Oswald did it" vs "Oswald didn't do it". Without all the evidence available (to which nobody has access, I suspect!), my thoughts are that he was involved, but wasn't working alone. If the conspiracy theorists would just drop the "Oswald didn't do it" position and starting looking more into potential collaborators, the whole debate might get a heck of a lot more interesting.

 

[Soton Seagull]

Still not convinced by the arguments as to why Jack Ruby killed Oswald. I reckon there is more to it, although it was clear that Oswald acted alone, on the day at least, that is not to say no-one encouraged him.

Bit gutting though, because I thought JFK film was excellent and it convinced me of a conspiracy. Damn you Hollywood!

 

[fatbadger]

Yeah, well, JFK was an Oliver Stone film i.e. complete pish.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

They said that all the documents were released from the archives after the film was made as it caused so many problems. I wasnt aware of this until last night.

Documents were released Rambo, not necessarily all the documents. Entirely hypothetically, if you had 10 pallets of paperwork, nine of which supported your line and one of which contradicted it, which would you release to the public? The fact that all the documents released back up the Warren Commission doesn't mean anything.

The programme also conveniently failed to mention that the spectrographic images of the damage to his skull were altered (two halves of different images comped together to make the damage look the 'right way round' from the point of view of entry/exit wounds.)

Funny how the mortician who was on duty at the morgue where Oswald's body was held the night he was killed, who has testified that there was a break in that night, was also absent. First test on Oswald's weapon did not find prints, second tests (taken after he was shot) did. Hmmm.

The witnesses who reported hearing shots from behind them, even though they were on the other side of the car from Oswald?

I find the idea of a great conspiracy at the highest level unsatisfying and unlikely, but the idea that Oswald acted alone is equally horseshit. I don't offer the above as evidence that they were wrong, merely that evidence can be presented however you want it to support your position. Any programme that can claim to put down a definitive version of what happened, whether supporting the great conspiracy or the lone gunman theory, should be viewed with suspicion IMHO.

 

[Rambo]

One thing is for certain is that it is very interesting.
Maybe the programme was trying to send us in that direction.

So many possiblities

Vietnam
Fidal Castro
Commies
Bell helicopter contracts.
Tampered evidence.

Will we ever know?

I suspect not!

 

[Dandyman]

Strikes me the issue is not whether Oswald was involved, but rather whether he was acting alone. The debates seem to be "Oswald did it" vs "Oswald didn't do it". Without all the evidence available (to which nobody has access, I suspect!), my thoughts are that he was involved, but wasn't working alone. If the conspiracy theorists would just drop the "Oswald didn't do it" position and starting looking more into potential collaborators, the whole debate might get a heck of a lot more interesting.

Spot on. There seemed to a lot of unanswered questions.

How did Oswald, cast as a complete loser in this programme, know the exact route of the motorcade ? what happen to the witness reports of the shooter on the grassy knoll ? why did so many witnesses' meet untimely deaths ? Is it just conincidence that RFK and Martin Luther King also died by assassins ? what was the connection between the Kennedys, the Mob and Cuban fascists ? etc,etc

 

[Dandyman]

Strikes me the issue is not whether Oswald was involved, but rather whether he was acting alone. The debates seem to be "Oswald did it" vs "Oswald didn't do it". Without all the evidence available (to which nobody has access, I suspect!), my thoughts are that he was involved, but wasn't working alone. If the conspiracy theorists would just drop the "Oswald didn't do it" position and starting looking more into potential collaborators, the whole debate might get a heck of a lot more interesting.

Spot on. There seemed to a lot of unanswered questions.

How did Oswald, cast as a complete loser in this programme, know the exact route of the motorcade ? what happen to the witness reports of the shooter on the grassy knoll ? why did so many witnesses' meet untimely deaths ? Is it just conincidence that RFK and Martin Luther King also died by assassins ? what was the connection between the Kennedys, the Mob and Cuban fascists ? etc,etc

p.s. any one want to start on Rudolph Hess ?

 

[Dancin Ninja BHA]

Excellent programme last night

Get Carter, they made the point last night that the President's route was shown in all its details in a Dallas newspaper 3 days before the shooting, so Oswald had plenty of time to get his shooting position sorted

I thought last night cleared alot of the ambiguity associated with the murder of JFK, but I love the "Man of the Grassy Knoll" theory, especially as there are photos of a man, with what appears a gun, floating around!!

I always thought it was the Mafia that had JFK shot, because their influence had been eroded in Cuba, and JFK was not being seen to get rid of Castro.....

Good programme, thumbs up to BBC2

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

I'm fairly sure that the route was changed at the very last minute, Dancin, so the route published in the papers was out of date by the time the day came.

One of Jim Garrison's contentions (the real Jim Garrison, not Kevin Costner!) was that no president should have been left out in the open, travelling so slowly (the sharp turn just before he was shot made them almost stationary) in an area with so many potential hiding places for snipers. He wanted to know why the cavalcade went the way it did at the speed it did, and why the route was changed so late in the day.

Too many questions to ever know for sure - that's my problem with programmes like this one, you simply can't present a convincing case either way, there's always a counter argument. Well made and very interesting though.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The only unresolved issue in my mind is the one that emerges from the revelation that LBJ went to the grave convinced that there was a Cuban link.

In other words, someone connected with the Castro regime put Oswald up to do it. The Cubans would obviously deny this (and Castro himself might not have known what was planned). Had that been the case, of course, the murder of Oswald by Ruby (who was plainly just a nutter) got the Cubans off the hook - because they had no reason to say or do anything once the two protagonists were dead.

We will never know.

 

[niknokseagull]

Excellent programme, no doubt.

I was in Dallas a couple of years ago and made a point of going to the site and the museum housed within the former school book depository. When I say the place is somewhat 'spooky' that is a complete understatement. If you've ever been to a place where some monumental historical event has taken place, you'll know exactly what I mean (a visit to Auchwitz and Birkenau this summer was exactly the same). You can almost feel the 'weight' of history upon the place.

Anyway, the site itself is no different to what it was 40 years ago. Standing behind the picket fence at the top of the grassy knoll is positively surreal. You are not more than 15/20 yards away from the road. If someone was standing there firing a rifle, boy would you notice it. It would have been virtually a point-blank shot from the top of the knoll. And then for the shooter to get away un-noticed .... I really don't think so.

I was a true believer in the conspiracy theories until I went there. The museum itself is actually superb and even pitches the exhibits and evidence from a fairly neutral standpoint. The plaque outside the building even says "allegedly (shot from the 6th floor, etc, etc .....".

We'll probably never hear the truth (if current thinking really is all lies and fabrication) but all the while LHO is pushed as the 'lone nut', then there will be someone else who says differently.

Ho hum.

 

[Fridge Man]

A few points

Firstly Oswald obviously played a part but did he act alone i doubt it.

1)When ruby shot him there was an obvious look as if they knew each other. Surely he wouldnt have shot the man just to get a pat on the back?

2)Who was the man seen running away on the grassy knoll who on the day pretended to be a police officer, records later show there was no police officer on duty on the grassy knoll that day.

3)JFK's head went back and to the left surely that gunshot came from the ground upwards ie a man in the vast sewar system in Dalas.

I recon it was the mob or the commies and i am dam intelligent so therefore i am probably right

I thank you

 

[NMH]

I'm with you on that, Fridge Man.
The most convincing spanner in the works for me, was the number of shots fired in short period, given the loading requirements of Oswald's weapon and the necessary marksmanship .

No computer genarations can dispel those doubts.

That a bullet came from 'another direction' is a physical constraint that undermines that show, and the coincidences that set Oswald up for an armed Ruby to meet him - very dodgy indeed.

 

[US Seagull]

One thing is for certain is that it is very interesting.
Maybe the programme was trying to send us in that direction.

So many possiblities

Vietnam
Fidal Castro
Commies
Bell helicopter contracts.
Tampered evidence.

Will we ever know?

I suspect not!

You're missing LBJ which a show on the History Channel over here (and there have been about a hundred of them this last week) suggested was behind about half a dozen murders on his way to power including his own sister. Oh and another one had Oswald's mistress working in a super secret lab to develop a virus to give Castro cancer
But seriously, there are so many theories it virtually impossible to pull out even a shread of the truth from all the crap that people will absolutely swear too. Consipiracy theories are very much like religions in that the true believers are totally impossible to reach no matter how much evidence you produce to dispell their myths.
All I know for certain is that I don't want to watch that footage of JFK's head exploding even one more time

 

[marvin]

I got the feeling the programme set out to prove that Oswald did it. Just like there have been several programmes setting out to prove he did not.

Like the Loch Ness Monster, even if they drain the place someone will still believe in it.

Personally i think either Oswald is the luckiest person that ever lived or he had help to be unmolested with a gun on the route of the president that the mob hated.

 

[Bare]

Except for the Zapruder film. It clearly show JFKs brains and such flying back on the trunk of the limo and Jackie crawling back on the trunk, grab two pieces of JFKs brains and crawling back to her husbands side. Later she said, "I have his brains in my hand."

I just can't seem to get passed that point. The second film taken from the other side of the road shows exactly the same thing.

 

[US Seagull]

Except for the Zapruder film. It clearly show JFKs brains and such flying back on the trunk of the limo and Jackie crawling back on the trunk, grab two pieces of JFKs brains and crawling back to her husbands side. Later she said, "I have his brains in my hand."

I just can't seem to get passed that point. The second film taken from the other side of the road shows exactly the same thing.

Yeah that part is pretty worrying. It does look a lot like he gets hit in the forehead rather than the back of the head. I think the actual ballistics of the thing are quite complicated though and I don't know for certain that it isn't possible for somebody to be hit in the back of the head and yet get that result. Perhaps a return wave from the pressure wave of the initial hit bouncing off the front of the skull? I don't know if that possible. You're the gun expert here.
Thanks for the graphic description though. I feel quite sick now

 

[Happy Seagull]

Well with alot of guns the exit wound is always the more larger of the 2. So if half the back of JFK's head was missing it would suggest a shot from front to back. The way in which he reacted once shot would also support that. Reports from people hearing shoots from behind them on the grassy knoll just adds even more fuel to this arguement.

I think it's foolish for anyone to think of shooting the President and then leaving behind the murder weapon along with his prints on it. Surely you'd only do this if you wanted to get caught, and if Oswalds motive was to get caught then why deny the shooting on Live TV?