Hillsborough

[Lord Bamber]

Hillsborough debate: Liverpool MP Steve Rotheram's opening speech in full - News - Liverpool FC - Liverpool Echo

Moving words.

As another posters has observed, disappointing too few MP's inn attendance but at least debate is being heard.

 

[drew]

Even if there were I'm pretty sure it's a red herring. The stand was under capacity.

Not sure what your point is that the stand was under capacity?
Also, why would the fact that there may have been a number of fans without tickets trying to get in, possibly contributing to the crush outside that led to the fatal decision to open the gates be a red herring!

 

[melias shoes]

I'm really not sure what new information people are hoping to obtain from this disclosure. Surely the facts are that thousands of fans turned up without tickets hoping to rush the gates (as was the norm then for most big games), the police were scared about people getting crushed outside so opened a gate to let the fans in. The incoming fans should have been shepherded to the outer pens but were not hence the crush in the centre two pens.

Sure the police made errors that day which almost certainly cost lives but everyone knows that already don't they?

Absolutely this.
I remember the 83 semi at Highbury. The 2 enclosures directly behind the clock were packed, and , yet they still kept coming despite being gaps to allow free flow into the outer pens. The crowd including myself and mates was just swaying and it was bloody scary. If you were there you will also remember that it was a hot day which didn't help the situation. To their credit the stewards were trying to get people to move into the outer pen but no one moved. The only thing that spread us across the terrace was when Jimmy Case scored the opener and everyone seemed to spread out. I don't know what i was more excited about the fact we had scored or that we could move at our own free will.

 

[clapham_gull]

Not sure what your point is that the stand was under capacity?
Also, why would the fact that there may have been a number of fans without tickets trying to get in, possibly contributing to the crush outside that led to the fatal decision to open the gates be a red herring!

The ticket-less fans theory is obviously quite seductive but there isn't any evidence to prove it was a factor. It may well be the case that some fans entered the ground without displaying their tickets when the door was opened but....

The HSE (?) report at the time painstakingly counted all the fans entering the stadium through the turnstiles from the available CCTV footage. They compared it to the number of tickets sold and IF some fans entered the ground without them their number was of little consequence.

Haven't read the report for years, but it's something like 20 ticket less fans in a worst case scenario.

The game wasn't sold out and tickets were still available on the day.

A number of coaches turning up late at the same time because of an accident on the motorway was a major factor.

They should have delayed the kick off.

Simply there was more than enough room in that stand, but fans were directed to towards an area that was packed leading to crush. It was a disaster waiting to happen and could have have happened in a number of grounds at the time.

The ticket-less fans theory simply doesn't hold any weight I'm afraid. It just one of those things that gets repeated as a truth however much evidence is presented to the contrary.

A bit like that bloke at Stockwell tube station jumping the barriers. I still hear that repeated even though the CCTV eventually came to light and saw him walking quite calmly through the station....

I remember a few scary moments at the Goldstone in the past but last time I really remember being quite scared and drowning in other people was on the South Bank in the Year 2000. Coming away there was a moment when I felt myself falling under the crowd and sensed the collective fear of severe over crowding. Soon eased off, but I've always remembered it as really quite dangerous and the potential to be far much more.

If someone had died that night wonder who would have been blamed ?

 

[drew]

The ticket-less fans theory is obviously quite seductive but there isn't any evidence to prove it was a factor. It may well be the case that some fans entered the ground without displaying their tickets when the door was opened but....

The HSE (?) report at the time painstakingly counted all the fans entering the stadium through the turnstiles from the available CCTV footage. They compared it to the number of tickets sold and IF some fans entered the ground without them their number was of little consequence.

Haven't read the report for years, but it's something like 20 ticket less fans in a worst case scenario.

The game wasn't sold out and tickets were still available on the day.

A number of coaches turning up late at the same time because of an accident on the motorway was a major factor.

They should have delayed the kick off.

Simply there was more than enough room in that stand, but fans were directed to towards an area that was packed leading to crush. It was a disaster waiting to happen and could have have happened in a number of grounds at the time.

The ticket-less fans theory simply doesn't hold any weight I'm afraid. It just one of those things that gets repeated as a truth however much evidence is presented to the contrary.

A bit like that bloke at Stockwell tube station jumping the barriers. I still hear that repeated even though the CCTV eventually came to light and saw him walking quite calmly through the station....

I remember a few scary moments at the Goldstone in the past but last time I really remember being quite scared and drowning in other people was on the South Bank in the Year 2000. Coming away there was a moment when I felt myself falling under the crowd and sensed the collective fear of severe over crowding. Soon eased off, but I've always remembered it as really quite dangerous and the potential to be far much more.

If someone had died that night wonder who would have been blamed ?

Can't see anything in the interim report suggesting anything as low as 20! Perhaps you should revisit the report and point me in the right direction.

 

[clapham_gull]

Can't see anything in the interim report suggesting anything as low as 20! Perhaps you should revisit the report and point me in the right direction.

It's probably something else I've read that analyses the figures. But that's irrelevant, unless you can point me to the evidence in the report that suggests that ticket-less fans were a factor.

It's a bit odd you even mention the Taylor Report because you appear to disagree with it ?

 

[Gus is god]

seems the BBC have already picked up on a senior police officer asking an officer to amend his officer statement.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The ticket-less fans theory is obviously quite seductive but there isn't any evidence to prove it was a factor. It may well be the case that some fans entered the ground without displaying their tickets when the door was opened but....

The HSE (?) report at the time painstakingly counted all the fans entering the stadium through the turnstiles from the available CCTV footage. They compared it to the number of tickets sold and IF some fans entered the ground without them their number was of little consequence.

Haven't read the report for years, but it's something like 20 ticket less fans in a worst case scenario.

The game wasn't sold out and tickets were still available on the day.

A number of coaches turning up late at the same time because of an accident on the motorway was a major factor.

They should have delayed the kick off.

Simply there was more than enough room in that stand, but fans were directed to towards an area that was packed leading to crush. It was a disaster waiting to happen and could have have happened in a number of grounds at the time.

The ticket-less fans theory simply doesn't hold any weight I'm afraid. It just one of those things that gets repeated as a truth however much evidence is presented to the contrary.

A bit like that bloke at Stockwell tube station jumping the barriers. I still hear that repeated even though the CCTV eventually came to light and saw him walking quite calmly through the station....

I remember a few scary moments at the Goldstone in the past but last time I really remember being quite scared and drowning in other people was on the South Bank in the Year 2000. Coming away there was a moment when I felt myself falling under the crowd and sensed the collective fear of severe over crowding. Soon eased off, but I've always remembered it as really quite dangerous and the potential to be far much more.

If someone had died that night wonder who would have been blamed ?

The South Bank? Where is this South Bank?

Sent from my wardrobe whilst watching Susannah Reid and Sian Williams enjoy a clam sandwich.

 

[clapham_gull]

The South Bank? Where is this South Bank?

Sent from my wardrobe whilst watching Susannah Reid and Sian Williams enjoy a clam sandwich.

.. er London.

 

[wellquickwoody]

.. er London.

Nothing to do with football then, unless you mean West Ham?

Sent from my wardrobe whilst watching Susannah Reid and Sian Williams enjoy a clam sandwich.

 

[clapham_gull]

Nothing to do with football then, unless you mean West Ham?

Sent from my wardrobe whilst watching Susannah Reid and Sian Williams enjoy a clam sandwich.

No

 

[GT49er]

Nothing can change what happened that fateful day but if no-one has got anything to hide, why not let the info come out. If it does reveal a bombshell, which maybe was covered up then it was worth it. If it only reveals what we already know but it can help the families of those who lost loved ones move on, its worth it.

Fair comment. I'll go with that.

 

[clapham_gull]

Correcting what I posted earlier the game only sold out the day before. Tickets were available at Anfield. Making it still (a bit odd) the idea that hundreds of fans turned up without tickets. They didn't.

Anecdotal evidence subsequently dis-proven.

 

[Captain Sensible]

I mean this in the context that I say it, Hillsborough was a product of years of mishandling of crowds and also of the climate at the time. Hillsborough is a sign of the times back then. Horrible disaster, OB tried to cover mistakes, terrace fandom, and a football governing body that gave the wrong side to the wrong team. Mix it all up and you have Hillsborough.

 

[drew]

It's probably something else I've read that analyses the figures. But that's irrelevant, unless you can point me to the evidence in the report that suggests that ticket-less fans were a factor.

It's a bit odd you even mention the Taylor Report because you appear to disagree with it ?

Exactly where do I disagree with the Taylor report?

 

[The Large One]

If the relatives get some closure out of it then great but I am not sure what they are hoping to get out of this.

The Taylor report blamed an operational Police decision and an antiquated stadium and directly led to billions being spent on new and improved stadiums in the twenty odd years since.

Easy for me to say, but unless something sensational comes out of the released papers then I think it is time to let it lie.

Why do you need anything sensational? The truth (the whole truth) is what is being asked for.

 

[The Large One]

Exactly where do I disagree with the Taylor report?

Here. Taylor says the number of ticketless fan was not a contributing factor.

Not sure what your point is that the stand was under capacity?
Also, why would the fact that there may have been a number of fans without tickets trying to get in, possibly contributing to the crush outside that led to the fatal decision to open the gates be a red herring!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I can't believe that anyone still believes the fans were to blame. The tunnel at Hillsborough acts as a funnel, the police opened the gate, roadworks held the fans up, they were directed into pen 3 when adjoining pens had more space, a crush barrier gave way and the cages at the front were all contributing factors.

 

[Napper]

I can't believe that anyone still believes the fans were to blame. The tunnel at Hillsborough acts as a funnel, the police opened the gate, roadworks held the fans up, they were directed into pen 3 when adjoining pens had more space, a crush barrier gave way and the cages at the front were all contributing factors.

Things are not clear and thats why debate is out there.

Personally I'll be very suprised if this doesnt stir up a bigger shit storm regarding fans actions. We'll see

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Things are not clear and thats why debate is out there.

Personally I'll be very suprised if this doesnt stir up a bigger shit storm regarding fans actions. We'll see

Read the Taylor report and listen to Steve Rotherham's speech in Parliament. Don't believe me or anything else you read on the internet but look for yourself.