[Albion] Have Albion progressed this season?

[Stat Brother]

You've cherry picked our worst season (and, in some ways that's valid as it was Hughton's second in the PL with us) because we're not *yet* passed the total points for either of the other two seasons. We might yet and then your point would be a lot more valid, which is why this discussion should be for the end of the season.

If we stay on 37 we'll have done worse than both the other two seasons mentioned and only one point better than the one compared to. (I don't think we'll stay on 37 - but we could).

If Potter had only matched that season and got us to 17th on 36 points would either of you have sacked him then (hypothetically of course, because he's beaten it with 4 games to go)?

TBH with how the season has panned out, I feel a last gasp effort to better previous seasons metrics as a pyrrhic victory.

Great if it can springboard into next season, but failing that all it would mean is the last 4 games have been less shite than previous years.

The relegation tracker (so depressing!) has proven there isn't much between seasons.

 

[chaileyjem]

If Potter had only matched that season and got us to 17th on 36 points would either of you have sacked him then (hypothetically of course, because he's beaten it with 4 games to go)?

if we'd lost 5-0 to Sheffield Utd and then 2-0 to Leeds in the space of a few days. And then lost our remaining 4 games but stayed up with 34 points - then you'd have to argue that something was amiss but the performances have never remotely resembled those last few weeks of Hughton.

 

[Weststander]

TBH with how the season has panned out, I feel a last gasp effort to better previous seasons metrics as a pyrrhic victory.

Great if it can springboard into next season, but failing that all it would mean is the last 4 games have been less shite than previous years.

The relegation tracker (so depressing!) has proven there isn't much between seasons.

A bottom 6 budget and hey presto, we’ve flirted with relegation for the 4th season in a row.

But since the second half comeback at home to Wolves on 2nd January, in the main I’ve really enjoyed watching us. So many positives in that period eg Mac Allister, Lallana and Welbeck all showing us their quality, Sanchez and the defence have been assured.

I like [MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] ‘s staying up tracker. With our relatively low budget, almost inevitably we’re involved each season in the battle to stay up, imo it’s a useful, subjective ready reckoner on how that particular battle is going.

The lows for me - all the defeats. I’m a bad loser and it hurts on the day.

 

[Stat Brother]

A bottom 6 budget and hey presto, we’ve flirted with relegation for the 4th season in a row.

But since the second half comeback at home to Wolves on 2nd January, in the main I’ve really enjoyed watching us. So many positives in that period eg Mac Allister, Lallana and Welbeck all showing us their quality, Sanchez and the defence have been assured.

I like [MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] ‘s staying up tracker. With our relatively low budget, almost inevitably we’re involved each season in the battle to stay up, imo it’s a useful, subjective ready reckoner on how that particular battle is going.

The lows for me - all the defeats. I’m a bad loser and it hurts on the day.

Oh I do agree, but as said right at the outset when next season starts GPott had better be ready to poop or get off the pooper.

'Bottom 6 budget'
'So many injuries'
'If only we bought a striker'.

Half the team are young, free and clearly plenty good enough..
All teams get injuries
All strikers miss, deal with it.


Next season is all set to be a storming ride up to a comfortable 12th and staying there.
If that doesn't happen I'm done with all the excuses, all the trackers, all the 'one point more than last year', straw clutching, because as it stands the progression we can all see isn't manifesting itself on the pitch.

 

[Weststander]

Oh I do agree, but as said right at the outset when next season starts GPott had better be ready to poop or get off the pooper.

'Bottom 6 budget'
'So many injuries'
'If only we bought a striker'.

Half the team are young, free and clearly plenty good enough..
All teams get injuries
All strikers miss, deal with it.


Next season is all set to be a storming ride up to a comfortable 12th and staying there.
If that doesn't happen I'm done with all the excuses, all the trackers, all the 'one point more than last year', straw clutching, because as it stands the progression we can all see isn't manifesting itself on the pitch.

Potter doesn’t make those excuses, it’s just many of us, who have zero control over events.

If El Presidente tells us in August this year that we have football budget of say 16th, then that’s our most probable destiny come May 2022. Anything above that would be through the skill of the coach, whoever they may be.

Leicester aren’t our current benchmark. They’ve spent £400m on their squad and far more in wages. Funded by a season in the CL yielding £105m in extra income and £250m raised expertly in selling, Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Maguire and Chilwell. They’ll spent big again this summer, CL almost secured.

For better or worse, probably worse, the EPL is an arms race of spending. Many of our competitors spend vast sums in fees and wages way above their income, every single season. We’re competing with Villa, Leeds, Southampton and Everton who do that, as well as the 6 ESL clubs.

Based on that, to finish in the top 10 on our budget, will be some achievement.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

We’re more open but we have one of the best goals against records in the league?

I don’t think we’re more open at all. In fact I’d say we do exceptionally well at limiting our opponents to few chances. The number of clean sheets we’ve been picking up would make Hughton proud.

Its not about whether we've conceded more or less, or indeed limiting chances, it's about the type of goal we concede, and to me it is when we lose possession upfield...... The set piece thing has improved immeasurably. We have fantastic shape without the ball as [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION] points out.

Look at the type of goal we've conceded recently. A number of them is when we've conceded possession upfield, which would indicate at that point we are open behind the ball..... (Sheff Utd, Leicester, Palace).

Just because we've improved doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to improve.

 

[chaileyjem]

Wonder if Palace fans who've just secured their 9th consecutive EPL season think about this debate.
They've never finished below 15th but never higher than 10th and their points are always between 41-49.
Likely - given their run in - this season too. Are they treading water, regressing, ?

 

[Stat Brother]

Potter doesn’t make those excuses, it’s just many of us, who have zero control over events.

If El Presidente tells us in August this year that we have football budget of say 16th, then that’s our most probable destiny come May 2022. Anything above that would be through the skill of the coach, whoever they may be.

Leicester aren’t our current benchmark. They’ve spent £400m on their squad and far more in wages. Funded by a season in the CL yielding £105m in extra income and £250m raised expertly in selling, Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Maguire and Chilwell. They’ll spent big again this summer, CL almost secured.

For better or worse, probably worse, the EPL is an arms race of spending. Many of our competitors spend vast sums in fees and wages way above their income, every single season. We’re competing with Villa, Leeds, Southampton and Everton who do that, as well as the 6 ESL clubs.

Based on that, to finish in the top 10 on our budget, will be some achievement.

Then it's fortunate I have never mentioned finishing top 10.


Having given it some thought what I'm trying to say is:-

If the team were currently in the 40+ points zone and had been in there for a short while, the progress we all think we can see would be tangible.
For me that in turn gives GPott and the team more wiggle room at the start of next season.

But as it stands the team will be entering it's 5th EPL season in or close to it's customary position, which slightly takes the edge off the progress and for me increases the need to show the development sooner next time round.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

Vardy, Mahrez, Kante, Fofana. Tielmans, Maddison, Schmeichel, N'Didi and that's off the top of my head. Only Gross and Lamptey come close.

Vardy, Mahrez and Kante were all scouted and recommended by Steve Walsh. He has a great eye for talent.

Everton poached him as their director of football and it was him who singed Dom Calvert Lewin for £1.5m.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Vardy, Mahrez and Kante were all scouted and recommended by Steve Walsh. He has a great eye for talent.

Everton poached him as their director of football and it was him who singed Dom Calvert Lewin for £1.5m.

Calvert-Lewin and maybe a couple of others aside, I don't remember him adding to his reputation at Everton.

Possibly a few of these have turned it around in the meantime (the article's dated March 2020 and I can't remember Everton's squad in any detail), but there's plenty of low marks in here:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...ews/23-steve-walshs-signings-everton-17937898

Clearly did a good job at Leicester though, if anything it emphasises just how hard a job improving a side can be.

 

[Weststander]

Then it's fortunate I have never mentioned finishing top 10.


Having given it some thought what I'm trying to say is:-

If the team were currently in the 40+ points zone and had been in there for a short while, the progress we all think we can see would be tangible.
For me that in turn gives GPott and the team more wiggle room at the start of next season.

But as it stands the team will be entering it's 5th EPL season in or close to it's customary position, which slightly takes the edge off the progress and for me increases the need to show the development sooner next time round.

Fair do’s, I was aiming my comment at the overall thread discussion, not anyone in particular.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Potter doesn’t make those excuses, it’s just many of us, who have zero control over events.

If El Presidente tells us in August this year that we have football budget of say 16th, then that’s our most probable destiny come May 2022. Anything above that would be through the skill of the coach, whoever they may be.

Agreed, but wasn't that the point of hiring Potter? To achieve over and above our budget limitations in a new and novel approach to the EPL?

Leicester aren’t our current benchmark. They’ve spent £400m on their squad and far more in wages. Funded by a season in the CL yielding £105m in extra income and £250m raised expertly in selling, Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Maguire and Chilwell. They’ll spent big again this summer, CL almost secured.

Agreed and it wasn't my intention to state that the Leicester of today are the benchmark. Merely that with some good recruitment, a coach who uses those players to their very best tactically and big clubs having an off season anything is possible. And that then the budget snowballs with the extra income exactly as you have described. It may never happen again, but then once in a while a Leicester or a Nottingham Forest come along or a Sheffield United nearly qualify for Europe or a Wolves or Leeds re-establish themselves right at the top of the pecking order. It will not be easy, it may be madness but I can and will not countenance those who say it cannot be done because.....

Based on that, to finish in the top 10 on our budget, will be some achievement.

....top ten is HIS dream. Tony mentioned it first. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49294235.amp

 

[Guinness Boy]

Wonder if Palace fans who've just secured their 9th consecutive EPL season think about this debate.
They've never finished below 15th but never higher than 10th and their points are always between 41-49.
Likely - given their run in - this season too. Are they treading water, regressing, ?

Palace are at the end of a cycle. Their squad is too old, their coach is too old, their football is too old. And they may yet finish below us. They are regressing and their fans know it and it gives most Brighton fans a lovely warm glow. Next season we'll see if all that potential we possess turns into lording it over them for a whole season.

 

[vagabond]

....top ten is HIS dream. Tony mentioned it first. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49294235.amp

Reading that again via the Fan Forum is exciting. It really is such a smart long term goal (or “stretching target” as PB aptly describes it here).

There is a possible clue of a time frame here as well that I hadn’t caught before. It’s a 12 year American Express deal and Tony makes a distinct point of looking back at the growth made in the last 10 years.

So this really could be a long haul target of 10-12 years, and with a time frame like that it does make sense to go all in straight away with the sustainable model we’re trying to adopt. Absolutely nothing is short term, everything is with long term in mind. Sponsorship deal? 12 years. New manager is the one we want? Give him a 7 year contract.

And Tony’s words here:
"We had a vision when I took over that we wanted to get to the Premier League, build the Amex, extend it to over 30,000, and also build the training ground and academy. We've achieved that and we're delighted to have done that."

How inspiring is that. To date his vision and goals have been fully realised. I wouldn’t back against this guy meeting his target of being a top 10 club.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Reading that again via the Fan Forum is exciting. It really is such a smart long term goal (or “stretching target” as PB aptly describes it here).

There is a possible clue of a time frame here as well that I hadn’t caught before. It’s a 12 year American Express deal and Tony makes a distinct point of looking back at the growth made in the last 10 years.

So this really could be a long haul target of 10-12 years, and with a time frame like that it does make sense to go all in straight away with the sustainable model we’re trying to adopt. Absolutely nothing is short term, everything is with long term in mind. Sponsorship deal? 12 years. New manager is the one we want? Give him a 7 year contract.

And Tony’s words here:
"We had a vision when I took over that we wanted to get to the Premier League, build the Amex, extend it to over 30,000, and also build the training ground and academy. We've achieved that and we're delighted to have done that."

How inspiring is that. To date his vision and goals have been fully realised. I wouldn’t back against this guy meeting his target of being a top 10 club.

We are blooming close.

One forward away for me.


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[Weststander]

Agreed, but wasn't that the point of hiring Potter? To achieve over and above our budget limitations in a new and novel approach to the EPL?



Agreed and it wasn't my intention to state that the Leicester of today are the benchmark. Merely that with some good recruitment, a coach who uses those players to their very best tactically and big clubs having an off season anything is possible. And that then the budget snowballs with the extra income exactly as you have described. It may never happen again, but then once in a while a Leicester or a Nottingham Forest come along or a Sheffield United nearly qualify for Europe or a Wolves or Leeds re-establish themselves right at the top of the pecking order. It will not be easy, it may be madness but I can and will not countenance those who say it cannot be done because.....




....top ten is HIS dream. Tony mentioned it first. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49294235.amp

Dream/aspiration - shirley we can all agree on that hope?

Based on those consistently huge spending clubs, plus no doubt Watford’s Pozzo family will be pulling out all stops in bringing their usual array of connected club players, and we have the likes of Saudi’s royalty circling to buy a club ..... all combine to make it a tall order to achieve top 10 season after season.

Yep, LCFC show what can be done. They’ve had ups and downs (Slimani, the management of Shakespeare and Puel) along the way, some fantastic fortune eg Vardy and the title season when the most of the top 6 were either rebuilding or basket cases. Now it’s come neatly together with Rodgers and a squad full of quality.

To follow their model, a player will have to be sold for very big money this summer, presumably Bissouma.

With every penny of that fee and some, reinvested in new player transfer fees. NOT used by TB to ameliorate accounts losses. Leicester have been relentlessly big spenders since the title, hence the £400m squad cost.

 

[Weststander]

Reading that again via the Fan Forum is exciting. It really is such a smart long term goal (or “stretching target” as PB aptly describes it here).

There is a possible clue of a time frame here as well that I hadn’t caught before. It’s a 12 year American Express deal and Tony makes a distinct point of looking back at the growth made in the last 10 years.

So this really could be a long haul target of 10-12 years, and with a time frame like that it does make sense to go all in straight away with the sustainable model we’re trying to adopt. Absolutely nothing is short term, everything is with long term in mind. Sponsorship deal? 12 years. New manager is the one we want? Give him a 7 year contract.

And Tony’s words here:
"We had a vision when I took over that we wanted to get to the Premier League, build the Amex, extend it to over 30,000, and also build the training ground and academy. We've achieved that and we're delighted to have done that."

How inspiring is that. To date his vision and goals have been fully realised. I wouldn’t back against this guy meeting his target of being a top 10 club.

I think TB’s aiming/aspiring for 5 years maximum.

Beyond 5 years is too long a period for a business plan, too many unpredictables farther than that.

 

[Wardy's twin]

We have progressed in most areas unfortunately the one we have not progressed enough is putting the ball in the net and that is rather key . The overall quality of the football is better and the way we have handled most of the top 6 teams has improved.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Potter doesn’t make those excuses, it’s just many of us, who have zero control over events.

If El Presidente tells us in August this year that we have football budget of say 16th, then that’s our most probable destiny come May 2022. Anything above that would be through the skill of the coach, whoever they may be.

Leicester aren’t our current benchmark. They’ve spent £400m on their squad and far more in wages. Funded by a season in the CL yielding £105m in extra income and £250m raised expertly in selling, Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Maguire and Chilwell. They’ll spent big again this summer, CL almost secured.

For better or worse, probably worse, the EPL is an arms race of spending. Many of our competitors spend vast sums in fees and wages way above their income, every single season. We’re competing with Villa, Leeds, Southampton and Everton who do that, as well as the 6 ESL clubs.

Based on that, to finish in the top 10 on our budget, will be some achievement.

We may be fortunate enough to finish there once but it will be nigh on impossible to sustain. To regularly finish top half of the PL means that you have to outperform at least one of the Shameful Six plus Everton plus Leicester, every season. There will always be a couple of ' other clubs ' that overachieve and finish top half and outachieve you. As has been stated on here, there are a minimum 8 clubs in the PL that will always have more resource and better players than us. That means we are effectively in a 12 team mini league. Our aim should be to be in the top half of that mini league and to finish anywhere from 14th to 9th. Thats a six position interchange each season. Staying out of trouble but not getting ahead of ourselves. Not setting unrealistic targets.
I measure progression a little differently to many on this thread. I thought, initially we would do well to stay in the top flight for three seasons. We are now approaching our fifth successive season. To me, that alone is progress. As each season goes by, we are learning a little bit more and a little bit better how to survive. How to put those mini clusters of results together at key times. We will always have poor mini runs ( 4-5 games ) Its inevitable. We seem to be able to bounce back a bit better now. We are definitely more competitive now. There were so many comfortable 0-2 defeats under CH, where the opposition coasted to victory.
I feel more comfortable with consolidation than progression. Small steps. Marginal gains. Not big leaps forward followed by inevitable disappointment and frustrated expectations. It is fine margins at this level and it only takes a small change in the dynamic to see a difference. Selling key players. Replacements not quite delivering. Long term injuries. Management change. If you haven't got mega resource to deal with all of this, then the job is harder.
The manager is still learning and the players are still learning. Slow and steady, season by season. Football history dictates that most clubs have a finite life at this level. Many clubs who did 5-10 seasons unbroken in the PL are now in the lower reaches of the leagues. It can change very quickly. One of the biggest failings is fans of those clubs taking their place in the PL for granted and then demanding more and more. Boards and owners losing their nerve, panicking and looking for different fixes.
We have to be aware that one day our time will probably be up and we will have to regroup. Lets hope that that is a little way off yet.

 

[Hotchilidog]

I seriously wonder when some of our fans are ever going to be happy. Whilst I acknowledge and indeed share the frustration of the points that we have left on the pitch this season, I have thoroughly enjoyed the football we have played thus season. We can now go into any game without fear, even against the best teams. This a state of affairs that we have never been in before.


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