France and Greece say NO to austerity

[RexCathedra]

None of the charts I see in the papers have axes for 'virtue' or 'probity'.

That's why you do austerity in the first place. Too much loose talk about 'social democracy'. Too many of the lower orders throwing money away on Woodbines and drink and pools tickets. Whippets, too. Austerity improves the general moral tone. Gets back to the things that are important -- country, family, deferring to your betters.

No forelock left un-tugged, is what I say. And bring back fox-hunting.

 

[ALBION28]

Perhaps the current World economic model is wrong. After all, everyone talks about economic growth, yet that growth is the useage of finite resources i.e oil, metals, food, water and land. Those resources are dwindling, esp Oil unless we drill in the Arctic, but then kill the planet more.

The more a country uses i.e grows, the less there is for someone else. It used to be the Western world that used the worlds resources. Now we have China and India using more and more oil and metals, food etc and so driving up the price. The higher the price, the lower growth i.e people will be spending more of their money on the basics, heating, food etc and less on goods/holidays/cars.

Whats the answer? History suggests two options. A huge world war or step change in technological know how i.e from feudal system to the Industrial Revolution. There is the other option - which is to drill the Arctic, but thats only delaying things and may lead to a inhospitable planet and our extinction.

I hope we go for a technological change, but I fear that we are too far in bed with Oil.

Spot on. Sums the whole thing up.

 

[Westdene Wonder]

When the Conservatives/LibDems won the last election it was made clear that they would have to make unpopular decisions to pay off the debts that Labour had left yet already people are suggesting that Labour have the answer to our problems, of course they will let the unions their Paymasters have what they want which will put us on a level with Greece,Portugal and Spain.
I would mention I have never voted Tory, Labour originally then Lib/Dem it looks like UKIP next.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Labour only left massive debts due to a worldwide banking crisis in 2008 if the Tories had been in power they would have encountered the same problem.

 

[melias shoes]

I'm sure I heard a supporter of Orlonde (sp?) interviewed on the radio saying the plan was not to increase public spending but just have a slower progress on repaying their debts, not sure how that will work but I hope it will. As they said on the radio it will be interesting to see how a left-wing government gets on with centre-right Europe, with any luck France is just the start

Yes because the last left-wing government over here left us in a superb state. Didn't they?

 

[brakespear]

Yes because the last left-wing government over here left us in a superb state. Didn't they?

Centre-left at best.

 

[sully]

Labour only left massive debts due to a worldwide banking crisis in 2008 if the Tories had been in power they would have encountered the same problem.

This is why politics leaves most of us just shrugging.

The most enlightening programme I've ever seen was an assessment of the 80s in which Dennis Healey repeatedly confirmed that a labour government would have followed very similar policies to Thatcher's Tories.

It left me realising that generally the politicians in power at the time are reactive and make the only rational decisions available to them at the time.

As others have said, what happens in France and Greece is less down to what government the people vote for as to what the politicians are forced to do by events outside their control.

 

[beorhthelm]

Labour only left massive debts due to a worldwide banking crisis in 2008 if the Tories had been in power they would have encountered the same problem.

no, Labour left massive debts because they spent more than they had coming in. the banking crisis was a mere catalyst to the situation then and now. this is not the banking crisis anymore, that was 3 years ago. this is a sovereign debt crisis, no one wants to lend to many european countries as they owe too much and there is a concern they wont pay it back. Greek voters (France to a lesser extent) dont understand their situation, they have the choice of austerity or bankruptcy.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

When the Conservatives/LibDems won the last election it was made clear that they would have to make unpopular decisions to pay off the debts that Labour had left yet already people are suggesting that Labour have the answer to our problems, of course they will let the unions their Paymasters have what they want which will put us on a level with Greece,Portugal and Spain.
I would mention I have never voted Tory, Labour originally then Lib/Dem it looks like UKIP next.

For the first time in my life I am actually scared that Labour might actually get in to power again. Just please keep them away. They are a disaster. As regards UKIP, they had my vote over 6 months ago.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

no, Labour left massive debts because they spent more than they had coming in. the banking crisis was a mere catalyst to the situation then and now. this is not the banking crisis anymore, that was 3 years ago. this is a sovereign debt crisis, no one wants to lend to many european countries as they owe too much and there is a concern they wont pay it back. Greek voters (France to a lesser extent) dont understand their situation, they have the choice of austerity or bankruptcy.

Pretty sure this has already been posted, but is it a lack of understanding, as you put it, or a lack of willingness to suffer in order to solve a problem that was not theirs in the first place?

You say the choice is between "austerity and bankruptcy". For a lot of ordinary people, that reads "bankruptcy or bankruptcy" on a personal level. Do you honestly expect people to stand up and take a punishment for the 'greater good' of their country, when they didn't cause the problem in the first place and won't see the benefits if it is overcome?

 

[Chicken Runner61]

no, Labour left massive debts because they spent more than they had coming in. the banking crisis was a mere catalyst to the situation then and now. this is not the banking crisis anymore, that was 3 years ago. this is a sovereign debt crisis, no one wants to lend to many european countries as they owe too much and there is a concern they wont pay it back. Greek voters (France to a lesser extent) dont understand their situation, they have the choice of austerity or bankruptcy.

But you miss the point of why this weekend is important for everyone - The French elections mean there is another choice for greece, if the French start to renegotiate the previous agreements it allows Greece a door to ask for its terms to be renegotiated and that will tell how much the Germans (and everyone else) want to keep them in. They might just be able to buy enough time to reduce the austerity measures. That allows Everyone else to go back to the table and that is whats scaring the markets as it means a return to the banking crisis.

Personally I suspect they will leave the Euro if not the EU Lets face it many people may be saying in Greece lets just get out, get back our currency and start again because the austerity measures imposed are almost as bad.

There is a chance that Greece will have to leave in any case as it looks like the parties there will not agree to the terms and then we see what the Germans do.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

For the first time in my life I am actually scared that Labour might actually get in to power again. Just please keep them away. They are a disaster. As regards UKIP, they had my vote over 6 months ago.

So how do you explain that most of the countries in debt had conservative governments for the past decades?

Spain only had a left wing government after the Madrid bombs not because of economic policy.

New Labour economic policies carried on from where the Tories under Major left off.

 

[sully]

So how do you explain that most of the countries in debt had conservative governments for the past decades?

Spain only had a left wing government after the Madrid bombs not because of economic policy.

New Labour economic policies carried on from where the Tories under Major left off.

That's precisely the point I was making above. What the politicians call their party and their brand of politics makes little difference ultimately.

 

[Tory Boy]

Labour only left massive debts due to a worldwide banking crisis in 2008 if the Tories had been in power they would have encountered the same problem.

I disagree.

When the world was doing fine was when we should have saved for this rainy day, not pissed our money up the wall.

TB

 

[Tory Boy]

So how do you explain that most of the countries in debt had conservative governments for the past decades?

You seem to be implying that right wing governments bad, left wing good.

I'm saying bad governments bad, good ones good.

It was a Labour government that got us into this mess, might a Conservative government done better, who knows?

But this mess needs sorting, and I would sooner we all paid a price now rather than our grand kids.

TB

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I disagree.

When the world was doing fine was when we should have saved for this rainy day, not pissed our money up the wall.

TB

Bit like our industry being pissed up the wall in the eighties then?

 

[Chicken Runner61]

You seem to be implying that right wing governments bad, left wing good.

I'm saying bad governments bad, good ones good.

It was a Labour government that got us into this mess, might a Conservative government done better, who knows?

But this mess needs sorting, and I would sooner we all paid a price now rather than our grand kids.

TB

How is "our mess" any different from Greece, Italy, Spain ......

If anything our mess is better as we can devalue the £ ( not thats thats something to be proud of)

 

[Tory Boy]

Bit like our industry being pissed up the wall in the eighties then?

Surely your not blaming Mrs T for the likes of British Leyland?

The fact of the matter was our industry then was a joke, but if I'm wrong then please blame the millions of Brits who decoded to buy non UK products. Because if our industry was good, then why would anyone buy from elsewhere.

TB

 

[Chicken Runner61]

Surely your not blaming Mrs T for the likes of British Leyland?

The fact of the matter was our industry then was a joke, but if I'm wrong then please blame the millions of Brits who decoded to buy non UK products. Because if our industry was good, then why would anyone buy from elsewhere.

TB

Our industry was a joke I agree, but it shouldn't have been sold off or destroyed and our children are paying the price for that now.

 

[Tory Boy]

How is "our mess" any different from Greece, Italy, Spain ......

The difference is the size.

Our current debt is £2311.6 billion, and increasing by £122 billion this year.

Any ideas how to reduce that?

TB