Football & the Rooney rule.

[keaton]

Without meaning to be difficult, did you read my post? The major concern I have is that it may be treated as a panacea that will sort the problem out, when in fact I don't think it addresses the problem at all. There's no point bringing it in if it simply means that Paul Ince is going to be interviewed and rejected for each and every Premiership job.

I did.
But if there aren't enough prospective black managers, and it gets silly like then they address that issue by asking the questions why aren't there that many black people going for these jobs or taking the training?

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Without meaning to be difficult, did you read my post? The major concern I have is that it may be treated as a panacea that will sort the problem out, when in fact I don't think it addresses the problem at all. There's no point bringing it in if it simply means that Paul Ince is going to be interviewed and rejected for each and every Premiership job.

Good point,but do you think those that support this idea have thought about that or remotely concerned ? Just ticks all the right boxes.

 

[sten_super]

Good point,but do you think those that support this idea have thought about that or remotely concerned ? Just ticks all the right boxes.

Exactly. I've not seen much in the way of analysis evidence of what the true problem is - whether it is cultural (black people don't want to get involved in coaching/managing), availability (are people aware of the courses, and are enough courses run?) or whether it truly is lack of opportunity, etc. If they did some research into this, and then believed that it was to do with a lack of opportunity I'd be a lot more in favour. It's simply the easiest thing to do for all involved (except for the chairmen who have to interview the candidates!).

 

[keaton]

Exactly. I've not seen much in the way of analysis evidence of what the true problem is - whether it is cultural (black people don't want to get involved in coaching/managing), availability (are people aware of the courses, and are enough courses run?) or whether it truly is lack of opportunity, etc. If they did some research into this, and then believed that it was to do with a lack of opportunity I'd be a lot more in favour. It's simply the easiest thing to do for all involved (except for the chairmen who have to interview the candidates!).

Wouldn't the easiest thing be to ignore it?

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Where does it all end? This time somebody with their own agenda says a black man must be interviewed. What if the local GLBT spokesperson says we must interview a GLBT person every time the Brighton job comes up? I'm sure they could argue a good case. In the 1990's I encountered a glass ceiling because an area mgr decided we had to have more women managers so the next few jobs went to women. Positive discrimination just makes no sense. If anybody is motivated enough to get qualified and is good enough, someone will give thnem their chance.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that, statistically at least, it has worked quite considerably in American football.

 

[house your seagull]

positive discrimination in all intents and purposes is illegal ... if you have a problem raise a grievance.

equality in work is not as simple as treat everybody equal.

 

[GT49er]

In the 1970's black FOOTBALLERS were a rarity in England - West Ham had a couple (was Clyde Best one of them) and that was unusual enough to be widely noticed and talked about. That deficiency seems to have cured itself, hasn't it? Indeed, if you were doing it on a quota system, based on percentages of the population, you might even find now that WHITE players are under-represented!
Not all players can or want to go on to be managers - I'm sure black managers will come through, just as black players have, without anyone mucking around with positive discrimination - sorry, wash my mouth out with soap and water - I meant positive action!

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

This may be an American thing, as I have come across something similar when I worked for American Express.
When a top management position was advertised, they were after a "diverse candidate base" - ie, they wanted the mix of applicants to reasonably reflect the population mix - ie, if the population includes 50% women, 18% Afro-Carribean, etc, and one of those categories wasn't represented, then they were concerned that the group may not have bothered applying because they thought theywould be discriminated against so didn't stand a chance. As one of these groups WASN'T represented, they extended the deadline for applications (although I don't know whether they ended up with anyone from the missing group applying). Amex DID however stress that the interviewing process WOULD be looking for the best person for the job, REGARDLESS of ethnic origin etc, and that all they were doing was making sure that all groups were given a fair opportunity to apply.

In the 1990's BT decided they didn't have enough female managers in post so their answer was to change the job title for level 1 managers in the call centres so existing managers had to re-apply. Needless to say those male managers were unsuccessful and BT fulfilled the quota of another 700 female managers.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

In the 1970's black FOOTBALLERS were a rarity in England - West Ham had a couple (was Clyde Best one of them) and that was unusual enough to be widely noticed and talked about. That deficiency seems to have cured itself, hasn't it? Indeed, if you were doing it on a quota system, based on percentages of the population, you might even find now that WHITE players are under-represented!
Not all players can or want to go on to be managers - I'm sure black managers will come through, just as black players have, without anyone mucking around with positive discrimination - sorry, wash my mouth out with soap and water - I meant positive action!

Yeah and Clyde Best was a decent footballer & that is why he was picked it is called 'On Merit',colour was not the issue. But it is now.

 

[TS90]

I can't see many of this current generation of black footballers trying their hand at management when their playing time end's.

 

[public school boy]

John Barnes? Paul Ince? Luther Blissett? Leroy Rosenoir? Chris Ramsey? Viv Anderson?

 

[Barrel of Fun]

A tricky subject to broach.

I had an interview with the Olympics/LOCOG as they guarantee interviews to 'talented people with disabilities'. Didn't get the job, mind!

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Shit idea, if your good enough you'll get the job.

That's not quite true for all minority groups.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The PFA is to examine the possible use of America's Rooney rule in English football. The rule introduced into the NFL in 2003 requires at least one candidate for interveiw must come from an ethnic minority group when a club is appointing a new head coach. PFA chairman Brendan Batson wants the 'English' game to address the imbalance of non-white managers in the English game. Sorry i am not keen on the idea,give it to the best one you can find,colour or creed does not bother me.

I assume by ethnic minority that could be down to all sort of things rather than just the skin colour so you could still have an all white candidates list. So what would happen if no one from an ethnic minority group applies ? Would they just go out and grab someone off the street who fitted the required profile just so they can meet the quota or try to find a way to make one of their candidates meet the criteria?

Surely if they were good enough then they would be on clubs wish list / short lists anyway to get to the interview stage, we have enough players who are readily accepted in the game nowadays so why do people think that ethnicity is the reason that they are not progressing in management ?

It could improve naturally anyway as a result in the change in culture within English football where ethnic minorities that used to suffer racism and therefore leave the game after their playing career finished now stay and look to coach / manage as this behaviour has all but been eliminated from the game, it would just take time for the numbers to come through.

 

[goodoldsussexbythesea]

Shit rule, no matter what colour/race/nationality/religion you are, if you are the best candidate you should get the job! I wouldn't care if Gus was a black, turban wearing, uruguayan, hindu.

 

[brixtonA23]

The best person for the job should get the job, no question.

Our last two national football managers have been Swedish and Italian. Our most successful cricket managers have been Zimbabwean. In fact most national teams in both sports do not have a manager or coach born in that country. Think Hiddink with Russia and Duncan Fletcher at India. And in both sports England continue to have moments of navel gazing, when we didn't bring enough Asian players into cricket (nor enough West Indian English to form a formidable fast bowling attack, though Devon Malcom when annoyed destroyed the South Africans).

The questions always surface about the disproportionate number of black players in football, versus black managers. The NFL and the Rooney Law were instigated due to a necessary situation where there was definite racism toward even the idea of a head coach being black. And it took a long time to establish a level playing field. With the huge fan base of a single NFL team, if you're good enough, you're good enough. The level playing field. Once accepted then colour or creed becomes superfluous.

We are and continue, to beat ourselves up as a nation. Yet in my view we accept everybody deny nobody and give more opportunity to exist in what is the best nation in the world. If you are black and want to be a manager, then nobody will stand in your way and you will receive help and support from anybody and everyone that you meet. When I say everybody I know this is a lie and really won't expand on that. But the minority, in my experience a shrinking one.

So as stated earlier, the best person gets the job.

 

[Gwylan]

Chris Ramsey?

Perhaps not the best example to cite. “A lot of black players have retired from playing but there are very few black managers. More and more black players are retiring now, so this is a big test for the game coming up. Will we suddenly get loads of black managers? I doubt it – and, anyway, it should have happened already.”

When Saturday Comes - The Half Decent Football Magazine - Opportunity knocked


And wasn't Rosenior sacked just 10 minutes into a job? Again, not the best example of black managers getting a fair crack of the whip.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Blackburn's Jason Roberts was on Twitter yesterday saying Cyrille Regis (his uncle) had all his badges and couldn't even get an interview for a non-league club.

Now, even taking into account other factors (there's no guarantee he would be good, just like anyone else) for a successful, long-time top-flight player who has played for England and many good managers, and been a real ambassador for the game not to mention having loads of character for what he put up with from racist idiots, I find that staggering.

Sten Super's point about the pool not being big enough is I'm sure also correct, and I'd put that down to the above putting people off, and the PFA and the LMA not doing enough to remove the barriers and the suspicion black ex-players won't get a fair crack.

 

[Stoo82]

When are we truly going to realise it don't matter if you're black or white.