Faster than the speed of light?

[Norman Potting]

I failed my Physics "A" (really don't know why I bothered to study the subject in the first place). Reading this thread is making my head hurt.

 

[Albion Rob]

Does any of this bring us any closer to bringing the curtain down on the "Does God exist thread"? In either direction....

 

[sten_super]

I too liked the "If we don't have causality we are buggered!" quote, but from my first reading of the article I don't see how the experiment counters that? After all there was still a 'cause' (the neutrinos being emitted) and an 'effect' (the neutrinos arriving at the measuring device). All that's happened is they got there a bit quicker then they were expecting. They didn't arrive before they were emitted did they?

I'm nowhere near being an expert, but my understanding is: special relativity states that time slows (in the perception of the object) as velocity approaches the speed of light - as dingodan states they have an inverse relationship. Theoretically, if something with mass can travel at the speed of light, time stands still for that object. Of course no-one knows what happens beyond the speed of light (it's thought to be impossible to travel any faster), but theory suggests that time would reverse.

What's most likely (if the results can be verified) is that the neutrinos are doing something we've never seen before that is utterly bonkers, which precludes the need to actually physically travel across the distance - I've already seen a couple of people suggesting that the particles may be dimension jumping.

 

[jimhigham]

Time is a concept. Lunchtime doubly so.

Thank you Mr Adams.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Very interesting comment by a poster on the BBC website, he reckons that's why one of the more exotic types of particle (neutrino?) can appear to be in two places at once - because they get from A to B before light does.

My brain hurts now.

 

[DTES]

Or hard to get your head round at all, to the extent that I don't actually believe that time would pass at a different speed, however high a velocity I was travelling at. The laws of physics should be the same throughout the Universe, therefore the time measurements should be identical. Sorry, Einstein!

I assume you don't trust your SatNav then. If SatNavs didn't make an adjustment to the signals they get from the satellites (to account for the satellites travelling slower through time than we are) then they'd be wrong - and the error would increase by 10 metres a day!

(There's one for the fact fans...)

 

[Triggaaar]

Or hard to get your head round at all, to the extent that I don't actually believe that time would pass at a different speed, however high a velocity I was travelling at. The laws of physics should be the same throughout the Universe, therefore the time measurements should be identical. Sorry, Einstein!

Ah bless.

So Dingodan, I know that time slows when objects move faster, but has it been 'proved' that it stops at the speed of light, i.e. that that is the absolute speed?

That's the point. No more than it has been proved that the speed of light is the maximum. If it were found that the maximum speed (assuming there is one) is C * x then that would become the speed at which time stops, rather than a speed at which time goes backwards.

 

[Brovion]

I'm nowhere near being an expert, but my understanding is: special relativity states that time slows (in the perception of the object) as velocity approaches the speed of light - as dingodan states they have an inverse relationship. Theoretically, if something with mass can travel at the speed of light, time stands still for that object. Of course no-one knows what happens beyond the speed of light (it's thought to be impossible to travel any faster), but theory suggests that time would reverse.

What's most likely (if the results can be verified) is that the neutrinos are doing something we've never seen before that is utterly bonkers, which precludes the need to actually physically travel across the distance - I've already seen a couple of people suggesting that the particles may be dimension jumping.

As a (vaguely) intelligent layman I 'understand' the basics of the theories or relativity and the concept of time slowing, but I also thought these were the 'rules' for particles that start their life travelling slower than the speed of light? As m20gull pointed out sub-light particles cannot exceed light speed as the nearer you get to it the particles increase in mass until all the energy applied is converted to mass and none to acceleration (the so-called 'luxon wall').

However the existence of faster-than-light particles such as tachyons has long been hypothesised, so if these new neutrinos started their life as faster-than-light particles my own hypothesis is that no 'rules' of Relativity have been broken and these neutrinos are in some way proof of the existence of particles such as tachyons, and also they might go someway to explaining the weird quantum phenomena of particles appearing to be in two places at once. But ultimately I'm just a schmuck writing on a football message board, and if a physics professor says were 'buggered' then I guess we're 'buggered'!

 

[Triggaaar]

special relativity states that time slows (in the perception of the object) as velocity approaches the speed of light - as dingodan states they have an inverse relationship. Theoretically, if something with mass can travel at the speed of light, time stands still for that object.

But that is simply based on the theory that the speed of light is the maximum. Should the maximum be slightly faster, then that would be the speed at which time stops.

 

[beorhthelm]

But ultimately I'm just a schmuck writing on a football message board, and if a physics professor says were 'buggered' then I guess we're 'buggered'!

they are mainly buggered is they've all got to go back and re-learn/re-theorise everything.

But that is simply based on the theory that the speed of light is the maximum. Should the maximum be slightly faster, then that would be the speed at which time stops.

or, could be that time stops at the speed of light and theres a whole new bunch of laws of physics at that point. if the findings are correct, nothing can be based on the current theory as its just been shown to be wrong.

 

[Triggaaar]

if the findings are correct, nothing can be based on the current theory as its just been shown to be wrong.

panic!

 

[DTES]

Relativity, based on the starting point that the speed of light is the same for all observers (which has been demonstrated) leads inexorably to the conclusion that speed through spacetime is constant for everything.

Relativity, based on the starting point that the speed of light is the same for all observers (which has been demonstrated) leads inexorably to the conclusion that "speed" through spacetime is constant for everything.

The faster you're going through the space direction, the slower you're going through the time direction (and vice versa). If you aren't moving in space, all your "speed" is in the time direction, i.e. you move through time as fast as possible. If all your "speed" is in the space direction, you can't have any movement in the time direction, i.e. time stops.

If these results are verified and this entire theory is undermined, the biggest question is why has relativity passed every other test it's been subjected to? I am very, very confident that there will be some explanation/error found that shows these neutrinos did not travel faster than light.

(Also as an aside - if neutrinos travel faster than light then we'd detect the neutrinos emitted by supernovae long before we see the explosions. But we don't.)

 

[DTES]

if the findings are correct, nothing can be based on the current theory as its just been shown to be wrong.

As I said above - time to stop trusting your SatNav then!

 

[Jimmy's gonna get ya!]

So did Biff get knocked out at the enchantment under the sea dance or not?

LOL he DID. But now he DIDN'T. Get it? lol

 

[Triggaaar]

The faster you're going through the space direction, the slower you're going through the time direction (and vice versa). If you aren't moving in space, all your "speed" is in the time direction, i.e. you move through time as fast as possible. If all your "speed" is in the space direction, you can't have any movement in the time direction, i.e. time stops.

If these results are verified and this entire theory is undermined

If the results are verified, why can't everything in your first point still hold true, except with the new maximum speed?

 

[Mr deez]

Completely forgotten I'd started this when I was pissed last night...

 

[beorhthelm]

As I said above - time to stop trusting your SatNav then!

nope. the sat nav still works, and the calculations dont change. its only the theoretical understanding of why it works that changes. one hundred years ago they didnt understand the nature of particle physics as they do today, they still managed to get electricity, radio and all sorts of other technology working fine.

the comment meant that we cant assume anything about what new theory or consequences will follow if the theory needs to change.

 

[Biscuit]

The reality is we can never understand the nature of the universe - eventually, whatever science believes as 'fact' will change.

Time is a concept so why does space & speed have anything to do with it?

As we can apparently measure the speed of light, is it any surprise that 'unknowns' are quicker?

Is Einstein the new flat earth theorist?

Shame you didn't pip up with this incredible knowledge anytime in the last 50 years..

 

[DTES]

If the results are verified, why can't everything in your first point still hold true, except with the new maximum speed?

Without deliberately sounding like a cop-out... I can't answer that here.

In Brian Cox's "Why Does E=mc2", the answer to why the constant speed through spacetime is c (the speed of light) is a significant chunk of the entire book - plus the equations don't translate well to NSC.

It is there in the maths though - and I do recommend the book - it's genuinely brilliant.

 

[Seagull27]

There's going to be Hell to pay when they find out who made the work experience student do the calculations while they nipped off for lunch.