FAO: Anyone who wishes to show their support to students...

[Woodchip]

The bit that gets me is half this students protesting about fees are probably studying pointless degrees like Klingon or other subjects that have no career path. Is these kinds of students that are only doing degrees to avoid working that should have to pay for the course. Students studying to be doctors/nurses/scientists/etc... (courses that lead to a profession) should recieve tax free loans (and fees somewhere in the middle of where they are and the proposed fee) payable only when they earn >£25k.

That way if you want to doss around then it'll cost you, if you want to learn a proper career then you'll still have to pay back the fees, but not for a while.

Hope that kinda makes sense.

Oh, and is the irony lost on students? They are bunking off their education to protest they want a better education.

 

[sten_super]

I've just done some snooping and it appears a student loan does sit on your credit rating just like any other loan or expense. There are a few cases when it will not be treated as an 'expense' but these look more like loop holes than anything else e.g. "When applying for a mortgage, student loan payments that do not begin in the first year will not be counted as an expense unless the loan amount is very large or your credit is poor."

Not according to MSE...

Credit Rating: How it works and how to improve it ...

What banks don't know about you...
Student Loans (for some). Until recently, the official Student Loans Company passed no info to credit reference agencies, unless you had a County Court Judgement (CCJ) against you for lack of payment. That meant they don't know whether you have one or not.

However, in early 2009, the SLC has said it will start including defaults on old-style 'mortgage-loans' which students who started Uni pre-1998 have, as part of credit reference agency data. This doesn't apply to the modern loans, paid through the tax system.

 

[Biscuit]

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

For the same reasons someone without children pays towards the education system...

 

[strings]

edit - wrong thread!

 

[glasfryn]

lets throw this one into the melting pot then,
I have just heard on the local welsh news that they(welsh assembly) will allow universities to charge the 9k but will give a grant to welsh students which will bring it back down to 3k
so in effect central government (who you and yours pay your taxes to)will be supporting the assembly to supplement the welsh to go to university while maybe making the English students and their families pay the full 9k.
I'm not sure if that will apply to welsh students going to English universities but I did hear the word domicile which I think means it would not happen in reverse (English to welsh universities)
if this is so then their will be carnage as it will mean my daughters taxes will be going to educate next doors daughter in welsh studies(not even in English language)





the worlds gone completely mad.

 

[sten_super]

lets throw this one into the melting pot then,
I have just heard on the local welsh news that they(welsh assembly) will allow universities to charge the 9k but will give a grant to welsh students which will bring it back down to 3k
so in effect central government (who you and yours pay your taxes to)will be supporting the assembly to supplement the welsh to go to university while maybe making the English students and their families pay the full 9k.
I'm not sure if that will apply to welsh students going to English universities but I did hear the word domicile which I think means it would not happen in reverse (English to welsh universities)
if this is so then their will be carnage as it will mean my daughters taxes will be going to educate next doors daughter in welsh studies(not even in English language)





the worlds gone completely mad.

Student loans always used to be dealt with by the LEA that you lived in. I know this has changed now, and the system has been centralised, but I would imagine that this kind of scheme would use a similar system. i.e. because she is registered with a Welsh LEA your daughter would get the grant. I don't think it's got anything to do with 'nationality' (I use the quotation marks because that of course doesn't strictly exist when it comes to English/Welsh diffrentiation, we are all British in the eyes of the law). As such, any student whose parents reside in Wales would get the grant, no matter where they went to university, and any student whose parents live outside of Wales (even if they went to university in Wales) would not get the grant.

 

[bhaexpress]

For the same reasons someone without children pays towards the education system...

Well now you come to mention it ......

 

[Bold Seagull]

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

1. When you are ill, would you like to see a doctor trained to a high level to diagnose and hopefully cure you?
2. When your house subsides, or you need an extension, would you like an engineer to design the foundations?
3. When you sell your house, would you like a solicitor to act on your behalf to ensure the contract of sale is in order?
4. When you drive somewhere, would you like to drive on a road that has been engineered with correct drainage etc.?
5. When in your car, do you want it to get your there so that it's been engineered to work.

Who should pay for an 18yr old to achieve these professions? If a whole generation decide University is not for them, we are f*cked. We'll rely even more on immigrant professionals coming in to fill the gaps, we'll lose out in innovation, large contracts will be lost to international contractors etc. Don't pretend you as an individual can somehow get by in this society without people going to University. So the question is, why should the cost of that education lie solely with the individual? A doctor, architect, engineer, teacher etc. put far more back into society than they take out overall. Will we even have any teachers given their projected potential income compared to the debt they'll finish with?

I went through Uni in the 90's with student loans, but didn't have to pay fee's. I managed the loan repayments okay when I was earning, and so I'm not against paying back your education, however the scale of these proposals appear to be frightening, and frankly are regressive against anyone coming from many middle class families, let alone those considered on more moderate incomes.

I worked bloody hard at Uni, I'd like to know anyone else who stayed up 48hours non stop getting an end of year set of work finished, and consistent all nighters throughout the years, many weekends. Mine may have been a particularly tough course, but many are, and many students come out ready to offer a great deal to society as a whole.

 

[sir danny cullip]

1. When you are ill, would you like to see a doctor trained to a high level to diagnose and hopefully cure you?
2. When your house subsides, or you need an extension, would you like an engineer to design the foundations?
3. When you sell your house, would you like a solicitor to act on your behalf to ensure the contract of sale is in order?
4. When you drive somewhere, would you like to drive on a road that has been engineered with correct drainage etc.?
5. When in your car, do you want it to get your there so that it's been engineered to work.

Who should pay for an 18yr old to achieve these professions? If a whole generation decide University is not for them, we are f*cked. We'll rely even more on immigrant professionals coming in to fill the gaps, we'll lose out in innovation, large contracts will be lost to international contractors etc. Don't pretend you as an individual can somehow get by in this society without people going to University. So the question is, why should the cost of that education lie solely with the individual? A doctor, architect, engineer, teacher etc. put far more back into society than they take out overall. Will we even have any teachers given their projected potential income compared to the debt they'll finish with?

I went through Uni in the 90's with student loans, but didn't have to pay fee's. I managed the loan repayments okay when I was earning, and so I'm not against paying back your education, however the scale of these proposals appear to be frightening, and frankly are regressive against anyone coming from many middle class families, let alone those considered on more moderate incomes.

I worked bloody hard at Uni, I'd like to know anyone else who stayed up 48hours non stop getting an end of year set of work finished, and consistent all nighters throughout the years, many weekends. Mine may have been a particularly tough course, but many are, and many students come out ready to offer a great deal to society as a whole.

As a final year myself I've watched this progress with interest, laughed at some of the comments and tried not to get angry at others (like the one this post is replying to).

This reply sums up exactly why education (certain, worthwhile courses) MUST be available and accessable to all who have the required grades and determination to start such courses.

Realistically, increasing the salary at which you start to pay back your student loan will not effect these people as they will be relatively high earners. Providing support is available at the time so that talented students can attend university I have no problem with fee rate increases (within reason) but £9k is absolute extortionate.

I can't help but thinking Labour's promise to get everyone to university (i paraphrase) has swelled higher education to such an extent that the top unis see a massive opportunity here to exploit their market leading position to increase fees to an unrealistic and unjustified amount. Having said that, one positive to come out of the inevitable increase is that those who just go to uni 'because I can't be assed to work' will be filtered out into something more productive for themselves and society as a whole.

 

[brightonrock]

Youth have it hard,might help you grow up,not long ago 14 year olds were rushing of to fight the great war,now they are off down to pound land to go nicking!

Teenagers signing up to fight in the Somme is not relevant to the argument of whether higher university fees are fair. The comparison only serves as a transparent 'heartstrings' card played by idiots who think you can justify any argument you want by bringing in extreme examples. I could argue that people moaning over cuts to the NHS and police should consider whether they should shut up, because soldiers died without moaning in worse circumstances, but it would be irrelevant to the subject at hand. Regardless, didn't soldiers in the first and second world wars die for a right to free speech and democratic protest?

Very selective examples there. Take option B - the closest to my situation in this financial disaster. Add in being made redundant ( which I was towards the beginning of this recession ) and jobs being very very very hard to come by. You've either got too much experience or the company think you're just taking the job as you don't have one...Thousands upon thousands have been made redundant ( many people on here ) and more will lose their jobs so forgive me if I don't think that the students have, or will have, it particularly hard.

I take your point that they were selective, but (a) I couldn't list every possible example, and (b), I was trying to make a point. Is it a 17 year old potential university-goer's fault that the country has been so massively hit by recession? He/she did not pay for things on credit and spend irresponsibly for a decade or more, as his/her parents' generation did/have. He/she did not get lent more money than was fiscally responsible by banks serving their own interests, or governments more interested in re-election than actually making a difference. The marches are to raise the point that (individual cases of redundancy/students with rich parents aside), as a generation those of college/university age are being made to pay for the mistakes of their parents. And as you point out, jobs are hard to come by. So how does a teenager without qualifications or work experience at all, raise himself above an already crowded unemployed populus when faced by someone with 25+ years of work experience and a far fuller CV?

I think (c), being close to death and not being able to do anything about it, wins every time.

Congratulations on missing the point by the most spectactular distance. On this thread, its some achievement.

Shame on you, don't you realise that all tax payers benefit from their education (or so they keep telling us anyway).

Whether the course being done is graphic design or higher maths, if it contributes to finding graduates a job and keeping the economy of the country in a prosperous state, it can only be considered a good thing. As pointed out, the university system gives us doctors, solicitors, architechts, engineers and a hundred other roles achieved through 'vocational' subjects. But the supposedly non-essential, 'useless', new-age jobs in media, marketing, advertising etc - may not be essential to you personally in a life or death way like a surgeon - but contribute to the economy as a whole based on your choices. A graduate going into a marketing job may not save your life by persuading you to buy a different brand of bread through clever marketing techniques, but that purchase helps stimulate the finances of the country as a whole.

I now give up anyway - to be honest those of you in the 'f*** off students' corner are as likely to change your minds because of something I say as I am when you tell me I'm scum for wanting to be educated. Whatever happened to respect for education? Kids dont respect it, adults dont respect it...seems like a slippery slope to me.

 

[Arkwright]

Totally agree with "Education, eductation, education" but let's be honest there are far too many going to university. When I left school (late 70's) I think it was seven from my year went to university. The rest of us got jobs and took professional exams or apprenticeships, that system worked well. It was not just the wealthy kids who went to university but the brightest of the pack.

Why has the system changed? To keep the unemployment figures down!

Sorry but I do feel that you should pay something towards the cost of furthering your education as when you leave you should be walking into better paid jobs and if you aren't well university just isn't for you and maybe get a job and take professional exams or apprenticeship schemes and train within employment.

To say that in the future it will have an affect in doctors, nurses, ect is just cobblers.

And lastly, why spend your time running around London causing trouble and wasting police time and money when that money could be saved and spent on your education

Well I'm off for a pint after a hard day at work!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I take your point that they were selective, but (a) I couldn't list every possible example, and (b), I was trying to make a point. Is it a 17 year old potential university-goer's fault that the country has been so massively hit by recession? He/she did not pay for things on credit and spend irresponsibly for a decade or more, as his/her parents' generation did/have. He/she did not get lent more money than was fiscally responsible by banks serving their own interests, or governments more interested in re-election than actually making a difference. The marches are to raise the point that (individual cases of redundancy/students with rich parents aside), as a generation those of college/university age are being made to pay for the mistakes of their parents. And as you point out, jobs are hard to come by. So how does a teenager without qualifications or work experience at all, raise himself above an already crowded unemployed populus when faced by someone with 25+ years of work experience and a far fuller CV?

So you're suggesting that I should suck up the pain because it's not your fault - despite the fact it isn't my fault either ?? Typical student - me, me, me, me, me. Here's hoping the government don't wobble and get the proposals through.

 

[bhaexpress]

According the the BBC 600 students marched in Brighton today. However they also say a group of about 100 entered a multi storey car park and then threw missiles off the roof.

And you think that will convince people that these people should have a subsidised education ? I wasn't aware that even the clearly brain dead can go to university.

 

[brightonrock]

So you're suggesting that I should suck up the pain because it's not your fault - despite the fact it isn't my fault either ?? Typical student - me, me, me, me, me. Here's hoping the government don't wobble and get the proposals through.

Nope, not what I was saying. I'm not a student anyway, I'm just saying I came through that system a couple of years ago so I have sympathy for them, in the same way I have upmost sympathy for those made redundant as a result of the recession. None of its fair and there's a degree of everyone, from every group, needing to just 'suck it up' as you say, and take it on the chin, because "we're all in it together". Except we're not. I'm a part of the working sector which is vulnerable to the recession, my company is outsourcing abroad by the bucketload at the moment and there is a sword of damicles over me too, so I'm not making a me Vs. you point. My point is, those of college/university age are going to be hardest hit as a general group, because they're damned if they do go, damned if they don't. Go to uni, incur massive debt and start from square 1 with massive competition for jobs, or don't go, still face massive competition for jobs, and have to take what they can get. Students are not the only group thinking me, me, me by the way. Seems like everyone's out for number one at the moment.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

I'm sure I have to pay for things you use which I do not. It cuts both ways.

 

[brightonrock]

According the the BBC 600 students marched in Brighton today. However they also say a group of about 100 entered a multi storey car park and then threw missiles off the roof.

And you think that will convince people that these people should have a subsidised education ? I wasn't aware that even the clearly brain dead can go to university.

Those people are, to put it bluntly, f***ing idiots. So too are those graffiti-ing Nelson's column, or the ones who trashed the Tory offices. They're missing the point of the protest as much as those assuming every student believes their violence is justified.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Seems like everyone's out for number one at the moment.

Welcome to Tory Britain.

 

[bhaexpress]

Whether the course being done is graphic design or higher maths, if it contributes to finding graduates a job and keeping the economy of the country in a prosperous stat, it can only be considered a good thing. As pointed out, the university system gives us doctors, solicitors, architechts, engineers and a hundred other roles achieved through 'vocational' subjects. But the supposedly non-essential, 'useless', new-age jobs in media, marketing, advertising etc - may not be essential to you personally in a life or death way like a surgeon - but contribute to the economy as a whole based on your choices. A graduate going into a marketing job may not save your life by persuading you to buy a different brand of bread through clever marketing techniques, but that purchase helps stimulate the finances of the country as a whole.

I now give up anyway - to be honest those of you in the 'f*** off students' corner are as likely to change your minds because of something I say as I am when you tell me I'm scum for wanting to be educated. Whatever happened to respect for education? Kids dont respect it, adults dont respect it...seems like a slippery slope to me.

Well clearly you like to exaggerate you position because nobody has asked you to 'f*** Off' as you so elegantly put it (isn't education marvellous ?) Whilst many degrees do have a use to the public at large a hell of a lot don't.This idea that higher education gives you transferable skills is a complete myth as these same so called skills are to be gained in any walk of life, how do you think those people who haven't been to university cope ?

The whole thing is that whilst most students are exercising their democratic right to protest they're wasting their time at the end of the day as there's no way that this government will back down. It's also a cause that loses credibility every time a 'student' picks something up and throws it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

I'm sure I have to pay for things you use which I do not. It cuts both ways.

 

[The Ringleader Returns!]

Just got back - Was no trouble until the police started throwing their weight around. All in all, pretty peaceful with a couple of people acting like CU*TS.