FAO: Anyone who wishes to show their support to students...

[attila]

Bankers did not put the country 4 trillion in debt. Labours endless spending did. 'Sorry, there's no money left' was the note left.

Well, your view on that will depend on your information sources. And, as Tooting Gull points, the people who own those information sources (ie media tycoons like Murdoch and other, very rich individuals) have a vested interest in making sure that the information available from which people form their opinions is presented in such a way as to endorse the position of the economic and political status quo. And now, I'm out of here. I seem to be getting involved in some of the political debates on NSC - something i vowed I'd never do, since i spend much of the rest of my life involved in all that. But it is interesting and I've always thoroughly enjoyed NOT preaching to the converted Oh, and incidentally, Gus should play the first team, stuff FCUM, stuff Pompey AND stay top of the league. We had 46 League games when the Cup 'meant something', after all, didn''t we? (Ok, 42 in our finest hour but you know what I mean - these are professional footballers after all, surely getting paid for doing something you love twice a week isn't all that bad..)

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

The mess made of the funding of higher education is all part of the conspiracy to destroy and impoverish the British people.

Thirty years ago, only the brightest 5% of young people passed the rigorous selection for university entrance and because they were relatively few in number, their higher education was funded by the state and they undertook degree courses that were highly demanding and structured to produce graduates that matched in terms of academic training the needs of academia, the professions, industry and commerce.

Less bright youngsters were directed into vocational training that similarly equiped them for the needs of the professions, industry and commerce, but at a less academically demanding level. Again the training was largely paid for from the public purse and from industry sponsorship.

In recent times, governments have decided that it would be nice for 50% of youngsters to attend university and in order to facilitate this the selection procedure has been diluted in order that greater numbers can qualify. Furthermore, the funding of higher education has changed such that universities receive funding that is proportionate to the number of students they attract. The more students they attract, the higher the funding.

Universities have therefore now begun to offer degree courses that appear attractive and fun to 18 year old students instead of degrees tailored to meet the needs of future employers. Furthermore, because of the large numbers of students involved, the public purse can no longer be expected to pay for all those students and the system of student loans has come into being, which means that the average graduate now leaves university with a £25k debt.

The overall effect of all of this is that 50% of youngsters now have degrees, many of which are in subjects like Media Studies and Leisure Management that are of no use to prospective employers. Such degrees are as one can imagine almost worthless, and the top 50% of our youth in academic terms have been conned into spending three years of their lives obtaining almost worthless qualifications while getting themselves into serious debt.

Now the coalition government aim to put university fees up to c.£10,000 p.a., which means that graduates will start life with debts of around £60k and they will either have to pay off this enormous amount, roughly equivalent to a mortgage, before they can begin thinking about making their way in life, or they can choose to emigrate and avoid the repayments altogether. I wonder which option the brightest among them will choose?

These changes to higher education funding will result in a massive brain drain and those graduates who do not go abroad will be beggered with massive debts.

Naturally, there will then be calls from our treacherous government for immigration rules to be relaxed to allow graduates from the Third World to replace the British graduates who will have emigrated.

 

[User removed 4]

The ridiculous thing is the fact that short selling (gambling with our financial future at no personal risk whatsoever to the people involved) was legal in the first place!

You so very obviously DONT understand what you're on about if your making statements about short selling having no personal risk to the people involved, plus the only reason these banks were shorted in the first place is because they were basket cases.

 

[nwgull]

I went to uni in 1994, so was lucky enough to not have to pay tuition fees. I feel for the students of today, and although I won't be involving myself in any direct protest, I would not vote for the lib dems if there was an election tomorrow despite being a member.

I don't think the students do themselves too many favours sometimes though. I heard a phone interview on 5 live the other morning with some girl saying that she couldn't go to uni etc. The presenters played devil's advocate and suggested that she'd only have to pay off the debt if and when she was earning a half decent salary. Unfortunately she could only respond with a rant that made me dislike her, even though I agree with the principle of the protests.

 

[Robbie G]

Having just finished university, I'm rather happy that the fees didn't go up to £9k when I was considering applying. If they had, I wouldn't have gone to university (or at least would have had to have been greatly persuaded to do it). I just finished with a First in Economics, so arguably I am the sort of person who should go to university.

For some courses, £9k a year may be justified (Chemistry or such like as it has large costs for equipment etc), but for my course it was all textbook or journal based. I had no more than 9 hours of teaching a week. For me, £9k would not be good value for money for my course and I would feel that the money was being paid to make the university look attractive or to pay for the extortionate wage of higher management including the Vice-Chancellor (circa £250k a year).

Protest for what you believe in but condemn any violence (you lose so much credibility for it). Also, I wish other groups didn't hijack the protests, such as Stop The War Coaliition and Socialist Worker (who believe, stupidly, that university education should be FREE).

I think university fees should be increased but not in such a large step.

 

[bradley1]

What I dont get is that if all the countries are in debt who goes all the money?

 

[brightonrock]

The problem is that everyone likes to think they have it hardest. We all like to feel hard done by and have a moan. But which of these three is more f***ed -
(a) 17 year old student, who decides to go to uni in an attempt to get him higher in the pecking order than the increasing number of people with A-Levels/degrees (whether or not the numbers going to uni is a good or bad thing is a separate matter). He wants to better himself, gain knowledge, improve his employment chances, mature and learn to live alone, budget, look after himself, gain independence - then he has to pay £27,000 for that, so when he comes out of university he will START 'adult' life with an enormous debt.
(b) A 40 year old who has a mortgage and a job they've been in for 20+ years, maybe with some sideways moves in that time. They have a car, a family, and as part of widespread cuts they have to tighten their belt a little, perhaps go to the Albion just every other week, maybe buy budget beans in the supermarket instead of premium.
(c) An 80 year old pensioner who may soon have to go into a home/hospital as they are becoming frail and can't care for themselves.

The answer is a. The new government is doing a lot for the elderly, big campaigns about dignity and proper care across the board. Those who are already set up for life with car/job/house etc may face hardship yes, but the single worst hit group by this sort of thing is 16-25 year olds, now, who can't get a job because of the massive unemployment, can't earn enough for a car or a house, and on top of that are expected to take on enormous amounts of debts too - and will then spend the next ten years doing 'whatever they can' to make ends meet.

So to some comments from this thread...

Do f*** off-who the hell do you think funds your 'education' until you get yourself a job when you finally start paying back your loans?...If you want further education, pay for it yourselves because I'm not happy funding you-especially when I encounter little twats with 'attitude' like you.

Yeah, and I've never been ill, so f*** the NHS, everyone who uses it can pay for it themselves. The nurses can just take it from their wallet whilst they're having chemo. And I've got no problems with Iraq, the soldiers can buy their own f***ing body armour and ammunition. And I've never been a victim of crime, so f*** the police, the people who get beat up or burgled should pay a consultancy fee when they're stupid enough to let it happen to them. Your statement is so staggeringly f***ing arrogant and ignorant, you're a parody of yourself. I graduated from uni 2 years ago. I paid for my fees. I worked 25 hours a week around my lectures to fund it myself. And I'm not the only one in the country who does that. Having a chip on your shoulder does not give you the right to show such 'attitude' in return.

f*** students. They always think the world owes them something. Their behaviour at these recent "demostrations" shows them up for what they really are. Mindless thugs and many are parasites. Absolutely no sympathy for them and they are not the only people in this country to face cuts.

Brilliant. Everyone under the age of 25 is a thug. The damage and violence at the demonstrations were of a stupid (and I emphasise, STUPID) minority of angry young people (who have existed in every generation by the way - Mods & Rockers on Brighton seafront anyone??) who hijacked a peaceful protest and did the cause more harm than good. 50,000 students marched with placards and chanting. 100 trashed an office and suddenly everyone's a scumbag.

I would agree with that if all these extra students were coming away with technical degrees in subjects such as engineering, but that is not the case is it.

I feel that degree courses should be assessed on the potential benefit occassioned to the country by producing graduates in particular fields and funded accordingly.

These two raise a pretty good idea with one catch - who 'decides' the value of a course? Engineering/maths/clinical science, fair enough, are more likely to be considered 'higher brow', so to speak...but as has been pointed out, there is a huge and ever-expanding part of the British workforce in marketing, advertising, branding, graphic design, etc etc etc. These aren't practical, hands-dirty, industrial jobs. So while subjects like Media Studies are lambasted and torn to shreds as pointless, maybe when you're seeking a career in the Media its more useful than having a degree in Latin?

What pisses me off is that I'm constantly told that because I went to uni I stole taxes, I was a layabout drunkard, good for nothing waste of space, by people who only met me 5 seconds beforehand. They've decided that students are an easy target and we're all the same. Their minds are so closed and they ARE, I'm sorry to say, completely ignorant of the system I've come from. I worked f***ing hard for my degree. For 3 years with lectures, study, exams and paid work around it, I was doing a 45 hour week which if I'd been in an office or a garage I wouldn't've had the piss taken out of me for. Did I go out for drinks? Yes, of course I did. That's a social, leisure activity. It would've been no different if I'd have not gone to uni and gone into work straight away, I'd still have wanted to socialise with my friends. I'm in employment now - not the area I what I wanted to be in, because every graduate training scheme or apprenticeship in my chosen area got instantly cut when the recession hit. So I'm stuck doing data entry in an office. Fun fun fun. But why should I moan, I'm just an up-my-own-arse waste of space aren't I? At least that's what I'm told...

 

[KneeOn]

The problem is that everyone likes to think they have it hardest. We all like to feel hard done by and have a moan. But which of these three is more f***ed -
(a) 17 year old student, who decides to go to uni in an attempt to get him higher in the pecking order than the increasing number of people with A-Levels/degrees (whether or not the numbers going to uni is a good or bad thing is a separate matter). He wants to better himself, gain knowledge, improve his employment chances, mature and learn to live alone, budget, look after himself, gain independence - then he has to pay £27,000 for that, so when he comes out of university he will START 'adult' life with an enormous debt.
(b) A 40 year old who has a mortgage and a job they've been in for 20+ years, maybe with some sideways moves in that time. They have a car, a family, and as part of widespread cuts they have to tighten their belt a little, perhaps go to the Albion just every other week, maybe buy budget beans in the supermarket instead of premium.
(c) An 80 year old pensioner who may soon have to go into a home/hospital as they are becoming frail and can't care for themselves.

The answer is a. The new government is doing a lot for the elderly, big campaigns about dignity and proper care across the board. Those who are already set up for life with car/job/house etc may face hardship yes, but the single worst hit group by this sort of thing is 16-25 year olds, now, who can't get a job because of the massive unemployment, can't earn enough for a car or a house, and on top of that are expected to take on enormous amounts of debts too - and will then spend the next ten years doing 'whatever they can' to make ends meet.

So to some comments from this thread...

Yeah, and I've never been ill, so f*** the NHS, everyone who uses it can pay for it themselves. The nurses can just take it from their wallet whilst they're having chemo. And I've got no problems with Iraq, the soldiers can buy their own f***ing body armour and ammunition. And I've never been a victim of crime, so f*** the police, the people who get beat up or burgled should pay a consultancy fee when they're stupid enough to let it happen to them. Your statement is so staggeringly f***ing arrogant and ignorant, you're a parody of yourself. I graduated from uni 2 years ago. I paid for my fees. I worked 25 hours a week around my lectures to fund it myself. And I'm not the only one in the country who does that. Having a chip on your shoulder does not give you the right to show such 'attitude' in return.



Brilliant. Everyone under the age of 25 is a thug. The damage and violence at the demonstrations were of a stupid (and I emphasise, STUPID) minority of angry young people (who have existed in every generation by the way - Mods & Rockers on Brighton seafront anyone??) who hijacked a peaceful protest and did the cause more harm than good. 50,000 students marched with placards and chanting. 100 trashed an office and suddenly everyone's a scumbag.

These two raise a pretty good idea with one catch - who 'decides' the value of a course? Engineering/maths/clinical science, fair enough, are more likely to be considered 'higher brow', so to speak...but as has been pointed out, there is a huge and ever-expanding part of the British workforce in marketing, advertising, branding, graphic design, etc etc etc. These aren't practical, hands-dirty, industrial jobs. So while subjects like Media Studies are lambasted and torn to shreds as pointless, maybe when you're seeking a career in the Media its more useful than having a degree in Latin?

What pisses me off is that I'm constantly told that because I went to uni I stole taxes, I was a layabout drunkard, good for nothing waste of space, by people who only met me 5 seconds beforehand. They've decided that students are an easy target and we're all the same. Their minds are so closed and they ARE, I'm sorry to say, completely ignorant of the system I've come from. I worked f***ing hard for my degree. For 3 years with lectures, study, exams and paid work around it, I was doing a 45 hour week which if I'd been in an office or a garage I wouldn't've had the piss taken out of me for. Did I go out for drinks? Yes, of course I did. That's a social, leisure activity. It would've been no different if I'd have not gone to uni and gone into work straight away, I'd still have wanted to socialise with my friends. I'm in employment now - not the area I what I wanted to be in, because every graduate training scheme or apprenticeship in my chosen area got instantly cut when the recession hit. So I'm stuck doing data entry in an office. Fun fun fun. But why should I moan, I'm just an up-my-own-arse waste of space aren't I? At least that's what I'm told...

Well said!



Don't say you've not been warned about to day now i've bounced this! From 2pm we are marching from Victoria Gardens, up North Street, along Western Road, on to New Church Road before rallying outside Hove Town Hall. Traffic and buses are likely to be delayed/cancelled etc. I'm ever so sorry for exercising my right to protest guys.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

What I dont get is that if all the countries are in debt who goes all the money?

It never actually existed. That's scary isn't it.

 

[Return of the Rev]

Youth have it hard,might help you grow up,not long ago 14 year olds were rushing of to fight the great war,now they are off down to pound land to go nicking! Go get a part time job and pay the money yourselfThe more you throw your toys out the less i want to pay for YOUR EDUCATION

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The problem is that everyone likes to think they have it hardest. We all like to feel hard done by and have a moan. But which of these three is more f***ed -
(a) 17 year old student, who decides to go to uni in an attempt to get him higher in the pecking order than the increasing number of people with A-Levels/degrees (whether or not the numbers going to uni is a good or bad thing is a separate matter). He wants to better himself, gain knowledge, improve his employment chances, mature and learn to live alone, budget, look after himself, gain independence - then he has to pay £27,000 for that, so when he comes out of university he will START 'adult' life with an enormous debt.
(b) A 40 year old who has a mortgage and a job they've been in for 20+ years, maybe with some sideways moves in that time. They have a car, a family, and as part of widespread cuts they have to tighten their belt a little, perhaps go to the Albion just every other week, maybe buy budget beans in the supermarket instead of premium.
(c) An 80 year old pensioner who may soon have to go into a home/hospital as they are becoming frail and can't care for themselves.

The answer is a.

Very selective examples there. Take option B - the closest to my situation in this financial disaster. Add in being made redundant ( which I was towards the beginning of this recession ) and jobs being very very very hard to come by. You've either got too much experience or the company think you're just taking the job as you don't have one.

At least the students don't have to start to pay the loan back until they get a job AND earn £21k. Those of us made redundant still had to put food on the table, pay the mortgage, pay for the car, pay the utility bills etc etc etc - most of which students don't have to pay especially as most could move back to Mummys and Daddys.

Thousands upon thousands have been made redundant ( many people on here ) and more will lose their jobs so forgive me if I don't think that the students have, or will have, it particularly hard.

 

[sten_super]

As someone who had a student loan, and whose wife still has one, let me tell you that having (owing) a student loan makes not one jot of difference to your life. My wife did a PGCE and came away from university with c£25k of debt (so not far away from what these new students are looking at). For the first couple of years the value of her loan actually increased, despite repayments. She now pays about £150 a month towards the loan, and while this is money we are missing out on, as it's only taken from earnings above £15k it's not ever likely to place you in a position where you are struggling to feed yourself. I'd say it's probably unlikely that she'll ever actually pay it off (the loan expires when she reaches 60 I think) so it is, to all intents and purposes, a graduate tax. However, without it she'd not have been able to go into a profession that she loves, so in our view it is well worth the cost. It has not stopped us saving for a house deposit, and there is absolutely NO imperative or incentive to pay it off early.

 

[portslade seagull]

So you mock my intentions because i'm not 42 years old?

That right there is why we are protesting. Ignorance of the older generations.

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

 

[Uncle C]

(a) 17 year old student, who decides to go to uni in an attempt to get him higher in the pecking order than the increasing number of people with A-Levels/degrees (whether or not the numbers going to uni is a good or bad thing is a separate matter). He wants to better himself, gain knowledge, improve his employment chances, mature and learn to live alone, budget, look after himself, gain independence - then he has to pay £27,000 for that, so when he comes out of university he will START 'adult' life with an enormous debt.
(b) A 40 year old who has a mortgage and a job they've been in for 20+ years, maybe with some sideways moves in that time. They have a car, a family, and as part of widespread cuts they have to tighten their belt a little, perhaps go to the Albion just every other week, maybe buy budget beans in the supermarket instead of premium.
(c) An 80 year old pensioner who may soon have to go into a home/hospital as they are becoming frail and can't care for themselves.

I think (c), being close to death and not being able to do anything about it, wins every time.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

As someone who had a student loan, and whose wife still has one, let me tell you that having (owing) a student loan makes not one jot of difference to your life. My wife did a PGCE and came away from university with c£25k of debt (so not far away from what these new students are looking at). For the first couple of years the value of her loan actually increased, despite repayments. She now pays about £150 a month towards the loan, and while this is money we are missing out on, as it's only taken from earnings above £15k it's not ever likely to place you in a position where you are struggling to feed yourself. I'd say it's probably unlikely that she'll ever actually pay it off (the loan expires when she reaches 60 I think) so it is, to all intents and purposes, a graduate tax. However, without it she'd not have been able to go into a profession that she loves, so in our view it is well worth the cost. It has not stopped us saving for a house deposit, and there is absolutely NO imperative or incentive to pay it off early.

Im not quite sure if you meant this, (so apologies if im wrong) but its a common misconception that the current student loan is interest free and does not need to be paid off.

My student debt increases by £80 a month due to the interest on it. I think some people believe it never grows and you just pay from your wages.

Some gets paid from my wages, but i still put in 200+ a month to stop the interest adding up and to attempt to reduce it.

I would DEFINITELY pay mine off as early as possilbe just to rid myself of it.

I realise the interest rate is VERY LOW but on quite a high amount it does all add up.

Again, not an argumentative post, just pointing it out.

 

[sten_super]

Im not quite sure if you meant this, (so apologies if im wrong) but its a common misconception that the current student loan is interest free and does not need to be paid off.

My student debt increases by £80 a month due to the interest on it. I think some people believe it never grows and you just pay from your wages.

Some gets paid from my wages, but i still put in 200+ a month to stop the interest adding up and to attempt to reduce it.

I would DEFINITELY pay mine off as early as possilbe just to rid myself of it.

I realise the interest rate is VERY LOW but on quite a high amount it does all add up.

Again, not an argumentative post, just pointing it out.

No, that's not what I meant. As I stated, my wife's loan increased in the first couple of years of repayments, simply because the interest payments were greater than her repayments. They have recently upped this rate to closer to a true market value, rather than the previous subsidised rate.

My point was more that there is very little point in making any particular effort to pay off the loan early. It does not affect your credit rating and IMHO you would be better off using the money towards a house deposit, etc. A student loan is not the massive constraint that some people seem to be making out, and does certainly not stop you getting on with your life in terms of other expenditure.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, that's not what I meant. As I stated, my wife's loan increased in the first couple of years of repayments, simply because the interest payments were greater than her repayments. They have recently upped this rate to closer to a true market value, rather than the previous subsidised rate.

My point was more that there is very little point in making any particular effort to pay off the loan early. It does not affect your credit rating and IMHO you would be better off using the money towards a house deposit, etc. A student loan is not the massive constraint that some people seem to be making out, and does certainly not stop you getting on with your life in terms of other expenditure.

Are you sure student loans do not affect your credit rating? It's certainly on your credit history so it will play a part in any financial matters such as a morgage.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, that's not what I meant. As I stated, my wife's loan increased in the first couple of years of repayments, simply because the interest payments were greater than her repayments. They have recently upped this rate to closer to a true market value, rather than the previous subsidised rate.

My point was more that there is very little point in making any particular effort to pay off the loan early. It does not affect your credit rating and IMHO you would be better off using the money towards a house deposit, etc. A student loan is not the massive constraint that some people seem to be making out, and does certainly not stop you getting on with your life in terms of other expenditure.

I've just done some snooping and it appears a student loan does sit on your credit rating just like any other loan or expense. There are a few cases when it will not be treated as an 'expense' but these look more like loop holes than anything else e.g. "When applying for a mortgage, student loan payments that do not begin in the first year will not be counted as an expense unless the loan amount is very large or your credit is poor."

 

[bhaexpress]

Well said!



Don't say you've not been warned about to day now i've bounced this! From 2pm we are marching from Victoria Gardens, up North Street, along Western Road, on to New Church Road before rallying outside Hove Town Hall. Traffic and buses are likely to be delayed/cancelled etc. I'm ever so sorry for exercising my right to protest guys.

I hope it's snowing as hard there as it is here because at least your pointless protest won't be holding up traffic as nobody in their right mind would want to be out in this, I wonder how many dedicated protesters will go on this march ?

 

[bhaexpress]

Tell me why I as a Tax payer should be expected to stump up money for yourselves to go to uni ?

Shame on you, don't you realise that all tax payers benefit from their education (or so they keep telling us anyway).