[News] Exploding pagers across Lebanon

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Fair enough but you have frequently argued that our opinions in the UK don’t matter when it comes to what is happening in the ME or indeed the US election so assumed it was more of the same.

Apologies if you think I have misinterpreted a point you made.

I think it still matters imo that we acknowledge that a State entity, a signatory of the Geneva convention should be held to at least as high standards if not higher than we expect of a non-State terrorist organisation when it comes to disregarding civilian casualties regardless of whether they are deliberately targeting them or not.

ps we on on the same wavelength most of the time it’s ok to disagree sometimes - don’t take it personally

No, I am happy to agree with all that

 

[DJ Chi]

The IRA'S objective was to remove Northern Ireland from the UK and incorporate it back into the Irish State. They decided to turn away from violence and embrace a peaceful politic process, as a result of which Sin Fein participates in the governance of Northern Ireland.
It is not totally inconceivable that a peaceful political way forward would be embraced in the Middle East, such as a 2 State solution, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc. lay down their arms.

There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

if Hezbollah attacks a barracks or police station in Israel, is that ok then and not terrorism, because its targetted?

maybe i'm the odd one, in my eyes, deliberatly maiming targets just isn't how you go about immobilising an adversary.

No, you are absolutely right. As I mentioned previously my expectation is Bibi and his gang will be having a good old laugh about all the injuries, and will then jog on to something else.

Both 'sides' are petty and vindictive (flinging bombs from Gaza into Israel to kill a few hundred civilians is petty and vindictive as well as pointless, as is mining pagers), and both have leaderships that have no intention of pursuing peace. That's the biggest problem (and is yet another thing that resonates with my comment about it not mattering about which bit of killing and maiming by which side is the more virtuous and the least atrocious).

 

[nickbrighton]

Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

Nailed it.

Sad though, isn't it.

 

[Seagull58]

OK. I personally doubt that Hezbollah or Hamas will give up and make peace with Israel whether Israel does or does not blow up their pagers. My expectation is that they will seek revenge.

But I will be delighted if proven wrong.

In the immediate future I expect you are correct. In the long term Netanyahu will go and could be replaced with more moderate leadership, Iran's leadership could change, Syria's leadership could change, Hezbollah and Hamas could decide that the way they are attempting to achieve their objective is not sustainable and they must pursue another path. Some terrorists become political leaders and participate in government.

 

[jordanseagull]

Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

Have you just compared Ukraine to Hezbollah? Correct me if I’m wrong but your analogy doesn’t work without that not making sense.

 

[Seagull58]

Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

Supposing it was Ukraine doing it in Russia and effectively immobilising Putin's chain of command and, in doing so, 2 children and a couple of dozen civilians were killed?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Israel surrendered the high ground many many years ago, allowing attacks on refugee camps whilst looking on. This latest act just shows them for what they have become- a terrorist state. Had this been Russia doing the same thing in Ukraine there would be outrage. Israel seem to have taken a leaf from Putins book- bomb Gaza back to the middle ages, with scant regard for civilian casualties, and now this, which had no way of being targeted. there was no way of knowing whether man, woman, child were near the pagers when they were triggered

There is a massive difference between rightfully defending themselves and committing acts of terror, Israel crossed over that line sometime ago

I agree with all that.

But they are also rightfully defending themselves.

Unfortunately the tactic is cavalier smiting that often descends to indiscriminate maiming and killing of civilians.

The tricky bit for me is juggling how to not take sides while not blaming one side or another. Both sides crossed the line a long time ago.

I have tended to accept that Israel is defending itself (albeit rather brutally) and yet I can't ignore that Israel has effectively taken the whole of Palestine prisoner, and has allowed the west bank to turn into cowboy country, with only one side allowed to do any shooting.

Increasingly if we want to see an end to the slaughter both sides will need to be made to sit down and talk. And the leaders of both sides will need to have the authority to get their people to behave.

I cant see any of this happening any time soon, so expect more death, more atrocities and so on.

 

[chip]

D'you think Hitler would've surrendered to the Quakers?

I very much doubt that he would have. I was just pointing out that that this did happen (both here and the USA). People dream up ever more ingenious methods of killing or subjugating one another, it's a shame that these energies can't be put to better use.

 

[Seagull58]

There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

A wholesale change of leaders in Israel, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas etc. is inevitable. Nobody lives for ever. What is required is for the new leadership to set different objectives or to adopt a different approach to achieving their objectives.

 

[DJ Chi]

Supposing it was Ukraine doing it in Russia and effectively immobilising Putin's chain of command and, in doing so, 2 children and a couple of dozen civilians were killed?

It's not equal though, Hezbollah hasn't invaded with an attempt to claim the whole territory, it may aim to do so, but there's no chance it can ever happen, because Israel has overwhelming military superiority. All Hezbollah has is terror. The question Israel should be asking is, will this operation help to end the terrorism? Sure, it can ruin the communications, make it harder to inflict terror in the short term, but long term, the next generation of terrorists is recruited, and the cycle continues.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In the immediate future I expect you are correct. In the long term Netanyahu will go and could be replaced with more moderate leadership, Iran's leadership could change, Syria's leadership could change, Hezbollah and Hamas could decide that the way they are attempting to achieve their objective is not sustainable and they must pursue another path. Some terrorists become political leaders and participate in government.

There are many reasons why my left eyebrow raised itself several times reading that.

For example, the objective of Hezbollah and Hamas is not to create independent Arab states on the West bank and in Palestine and live happily ever after. The objective is to drive the Jews into the sea. They could indeed choose another path to achieve that, but it wouldn't make things better.

As I have said before, if my old mum had had a cock she'd have been my dad.

 

[Seagull58]

I agree with all that.

But they are also rightfully defending themselves.

Unfortunately the tactic is cavalier smiting that often descends to indiscriminate maiming and killing of civilians.

The tricky bit for me is juggling how to not take sides while not blaming one side or another. Both sides crossed the line a long time ago.

I have tended to accept that Israel is defending itself (albeit rather brutally) and yet I can't ignore that Israel has effectively taken the whole of Palestine prisoner, and has allowed the west bank to turn into cowboy country, with only one side allowed to do any shooting.

Increasingly if we want to see an end to the slaughter both sides will need to be made to sit down and talk. And the leaders of both sides will need to have the authority to get their people to behave.

I cant see any of this happening any time soon, so expect more death, more atrocities and so on.

Israel has been attacked by Egypt more than once but now there is peace between them, as there is with Jordan. It is possible.

 

[nickbrighton]

Have you just compared Ukraine to Hezbollah? Correct me if I’m wrong but your analogy doesn’t work without that not making sense.

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

I was told by my Ol'gran

"one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

I was going to say this. It highlights what constitutes a terrorist is subjective, depends on someone’s perspective and motivation.

 

[aolstudios]

Israel has been attacked by Egypt more than once but now there is peace between them, as there is with Jordan. It is possible.

I admire your optimism & hope you're right

 

[Seagull58]

It's not equal though, Hezbollah hasn't invaded with an attempt to claim the whole territory, it may aim to do so, but there's no chance it can ever happen, because Israel has overwhelming military superiority. All Hezbollah has is terror. The question Israel should be asking is, will this operation help to end the terrorism? Sure, it can ruin the communications, make it harder to inflict terror in the short term, but long term, the next generation of terrorists is recruited, and the cycle continues.

Russia's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian state. Hezbolloh's objective is to destroy the Israeli state. The difference is only how they are executing their plans. So, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to do what Israel has done?

 

[jordanseagull]

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

I understand the various conflicts are related but this is a thread about the recent attacks on Hezbollah, a terrorist entity. Whatever one thinks of Israel and its warfare tactics, an analogy which compares Russia theoretically blowing up pagers of Ukrainians (not legitimate military targets) with Israel blowing up pagers of Hezbollah (a terrorist entity) doesn’t add up.

As Seagull58 mentions, Ukraine’s stated objective is not the annihilation of the Russian state, so of course attacks of this nature would be universally condemned.

 

[aolstudios]

Russia's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian state. Hezbolloh's objective is to destroy the Israeli state. The difference is only how they are executing their plans. So, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to do what Israel has done?

Your point is spot on.
I'd add though that Hezbollah want to kill all Jews