[News] Exploding pagers across Lebanon

[Zeberdi]

You are arguing from the specific (what I wrote) to the general. Of course it is a good thing that people understand global events. That is not what I was addressing (and I had in fact made some attempt to do exactly what you recommend - contextualize the events and consider comments made about them).

What I wrote was this:

"As with the rest of the Israel vs the Muslim world conflict there is nothing good about any of it, but that still doesn't mean it is all the same, every event identical. Some may argue that indifference to civilian causalities is the same as the deliberate targeting of civilians. I'm not sure that's particularly helpful. Anyway, even what we think about it matters not a jot."

I was explaining what I thought about the discussion about whether the attack on the pagers was equivalent to 9/11. My point was that they are not the same. I added that what we think about it (i.e., whether we think they are the same or not the same) matters not a jot.

Hopefully I have now explained properly what I meant.

Fair enough but you have frequently argued that our opinions in the UK don’t matter when it comes to what is happening in the ME or indeed the US election so assumed it was more of the same.

Apologies if you think I have misinterpreted a point you made.

I think it still matters imo that we acknowledge that a State entity, a signatory of the Geneva convention should be held to at least as high standards if not higher than we expect of a non-State terrorist organisation when it comes to disregarding civilian casualties regardless of whether they are deliberately targeting them or not.

ps we on on the same wavelength most of the time it’s ok to disagree sometimes - don’t take it personally

 

[Seagull58]

FFS. Yet more IDF terror tactics.

It was a precisely targeted attack on the Hezbolla organisational structure, designed to disrupt and immobilise it.

 

[Seagull58]

Any normal person with empathy, no matter which side they sit on, should not be celebrating civilian deaths. If this were a targeted attack, this would be brilliant. But this isn't. I would have said nothing if people weren't celebrating the killing of a child.

But it was a targetted attack. It precisely targeted the 3000 or so pagers used exclusively by Hezbollah to run their organisation.

 

[beorhthelm]

I really don't think that Mossad or Bibi deliberately allowed hundreds of Israelis to be killed and 100 to be taken hostage (with some allegedly abused and many certainly murdered) simply to justify a bit of genocide.

would have liked to think so, however the way they have prosecuted their war since makes one suspicious. they have no intent to resolve the crisis other than through subjugation of Gaza, and seem to have started on West Bank too.

 

[pocketseagull]

But it was a targetted attack. It precisely targeted the 3000 or so pagers used exclusively by Hezbollah to run their organisation.

Do you think it would be acceptable for IDF to be targeted the same way with 1000s of civilians injured and children killed in Tel Aviv?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

It's not at all indiscriminate. It precisely targeted the Hamas operatives that use pagers distributed by their leadership. Nobody else uses those pagers.

Amazing, why are two children dead then ?

 

[wellquickwoody]

Nice!
I’ve celebrated the death and de balling of terrorists in the most targeted mass attack possible. We have had 8000 rockets fired at us this year by these scum. However Israel reacts certain people have a problem with it, I wonder why?

Just to clarify, please identify ’us’. Are you Israeli, or Jewish, or both?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

It's not.

I was told by my Ol'gran

"one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

 

[GingerBeerMan]

The one bit of solace I get from this thread is that apart from the two nutters who apparently are fine with a bit of light genocide, the overwhelming opinion of sensible Brits seems to be disgust at the Israeli regime for the thousands of deaths they are causing.

 

[Seagull58]

Israel don't really do targeted attacks do they, as we have seen in Gaza. They'll claim there was a specific target, but they really couldn't give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut about any collateral damage that results from their rockets, bombs and missiles.

The same with today. Detonating pagers, whilst hitting their Hezbollah targets, takes zero account of where they are. If kids die, then so be it. Netanyahu really couldn't give a toss, all bets are off now.

Now I'm confused. I thought it was Hezbollah firing the rockets indiscriminately into Israel every day. Have I been misinformed?

 

[Seagull58]

I was told by my Ol'gran

"one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

Yes, of course, as we've seen in South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua etc., but, imo, this was most definitely not a terrorist attack. It was a targeted operation to disrupt and immobilise Hezbollah's organisational structure. It is not comparable to the rockets Hezbollah fires indiscriminately into Israel every day.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Let's say we don't live a comfortable and safe Britain, let's say we live in the Britain of my parents at war with Germany. I wonder how many people on here would have stood up and protested against the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany , Hamburg & Dresden or maybe the atom bombs .

 

[Seagull58]

While sharing the amazement at the sheer chutzpah of the tactics used, I really wish Israel would consider likely collateral damage a little more. In all of their many conflicts, frankly.

They may have taken out some enemy operatives, but there’s a lot of innocent people who don’t deserve what’s happened out there tonight. It doesn’t feel like anyone’s winning to me.

They blew up nearly 3000 pagers that were distributed to Hezbollah operatives. Who else would be using these pagers? There are reported to be some 2800 casualties. Hezbollah members would, surely, be the vast majority of the casualties? The video I have seen of the pager blowing up in the supermarket showed no injuries other than the person who had it in his pocket. "Some enemy operatives" is most likely well over 2,000 in one attack. Far more effective that bombing a building, and more precisely targeted.

 

[Eric the meek]

Let's say we don't live a comfortable and safe Britain, let's say we live in the Britain of my parents at war with Germany. I wonder how many people on here would have stood up and protested against the bombing and killing of civilians in Germany , Hamburg & Dresden or maybe the atom bombs .

Fair point. If any people on here had done that during the war with Germany, it is unlikely they would have done it twice.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Yes, of course, as we've seen in South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Nicaragua etc., but, imo, this was most definitely not a terrorist attack. It was a targeted operation to disrupt and immobilise Hezbollah's organisational structure. It is not comparable to the rockets Hezbollah fires indiscriminately into Israel every day.

Some would argue, they are acting in a preventative measure as Israel has been practically been given a green light to do as it wishes where it wishes by NATO by not being strong enough or scared of losing investment, business and American/Jewish votes in countries like the USA.
Israel has displaced and killed thousands, I think it is a legitimate concern from Lebanon that Israel is striking while the iron is hot, and will turn their attention to them, 200,000 people have been displaced since the start of this thing on the Lebanon border with Israel.

Is 43000 dead an acceptable response to the Hamas atrocity that started this ?

 

[Easy 10]

Now I'm confused. I thought it was Hezbollah firing the rockets indiscriminately into Israel every day. Have I been misinformed?

There's obviously wrongdoing ALL sides. Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel are all guilty of conducting indiscriminate attacks - I thought that pretty much went without saying, but clearly not.

This thread is specifically discussing the Israeli pager attack and the nature of it. But thanks for the sarky response, champ.

 

[Seagull58]

I agree they intentionally targeted Hezbollah. No question about it - that was their intention and I've read commentary saying that they weren't even sure they were going to follow through with the plot, but were worried about detection so decided to go ahead. I wonder if they regret that choice now, or would have been more targeted - I'm sure we'll never know.

But there is no chance they thought ONLY Hamas/Hezbollah fighters and leaders would be injured. When they were devising the plot and tampering with the devices, they would have known there would be a high risk that innocent people would be injured and killed. I don't believe they wouldn't have factored that in, and decided to proceed.

Maybe the comparison with 9/11 and October 7th is unreasonable overall, considering the intent was purely civilian casualties. But for scale of attack and the number of people caught up in it, it's definitely comparable. Humanity at its worst.

The scale of the attack is not at all comparable in terms of people killed 9/11 had 3,000 civilian deaths, October 7th had over 1,000 civilian deaths, this attack has 12 reported deaths (unknown how many are non-combatants).

 

[aolstudios]

oh they did and let it ride, as a pretence to flatten, displace and indiscriminately kill 43000 in revenge.

The US and several other agencies warned them, they knew.

That is utter, utter Icke level bullshit

 

[Seagull58]

I agree with you up to the analogy with 9/11 and October 7. Both of these were deliberate attacks on civilians.

The pager attack was a specific attack on a terrorist organization, albeit with no regard whatsoever for collateral damage to innocent bystanders.

As with the rest of the Israel vs the Muslim world conflict there is nothing good about any of it, but that still doesn't mean it is all the same, every event identical. Some may argue that indifference to civilian causalities is the same as the deliberate targeting of civilians. I'm not sure that's particularly helpful. Anyway, even what we think about it matters not a jot.

Perhaps the worst aspect of this, collateral damage aside, is that it will achieve nothing useful. The terrorists are hardly going to think "boy, those Israelis are damned smart - we had better leave them alone and seek a peace deal". No, they will be plotting revenge as I type. And Bibi and chums will simply be having a laugh about the deaths, not thinking "one more attack and they will surrender!". In many respects this latest event typifies the whole mess.

Edit I see that @hans kraay fan club has made my first point already.

You can't be sure that it will achieve nothing useful. There are examples in history of terrorist organisations renouncing violence and embracing peaceful, political means, and examples of terrorist organisations pretty much ceasing to exist. The IRA as the former and the Tamil Tigers as the latter. Also, Frelimo, Swapo, Sandanista etc. etc.

 

[beorhthelm]

They blew up nearly 3000 pagers that were distributed to Hezbollah operatives. Who else would be using these pagers? There are reported to be some 2800 casualties. Hezbollah members would, surely, be the vast majority of the casualties? The video I have seen of the pager blowing up in the supermarket showed no injuries other than the person who had it in his pocket. "Some enemy operatives" is most likely well over 2,000 in one attack. Far more effective that bombing a building, and more precisely targeted.

if Hezbollah attacks a barracks or police station in Israel, is that ok then and not terrorism, because its targetted?

maybe i'm the odd one, in my eyes, deliberatly maiming targets just isn't how you go about immobilising an adversary.