Europe!

[Westdene Seagull]

I agree, the scaremongering that was going on when we decided against going into the Euro was ridiculas, We were told that no Eurozone Countriy would trade with us, oversea's companies would pull out of manufacturing in Britain ie Toyota etc. None of this happened because the UK gives a shed load of money to Europe. We have an economy that eanables us to change interest rates etc as and when neccersary, this is not the case with Eurozone Countries...The mindset of the various Euro countries is so different I don't think the Euro was ever going to work. Would it be such a bad thing if we came out of Europe all together? would are competing power be too far diminished ? would noone want to trade with us? I wish I knew the answers but then I'm not an Economist, I just wish that we were given all the facts and genuine poss implications either way, and then perhaps a referendum once the electorate have been given ALL the facts!

The problem being is that NOBODY knows what will happen if we pulled out of the EU. It's all guesswork. There will be those that want us to stay in and so will say all hell will break out if we leave, while those that want us to leave will argue the opposite ( I'm in the second camp ! ). In the long run the decision needs to come down to a persons view on being part of a US of Europe ( which is the overall plan of the EU ) or being an independent country.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

The death of the Euro will be an economic disaster for the UK. the biggest European trade partner is the EU, if that goes we all become a pack of have- nothing states. In the a world dominated by China Russia and the US we have NO bargaining power alone. Therefore it is better for the Uk to work from the inside, not the outside. The EU needs to change and one way it has to change is to get rid of the veto. This will take power not only away from Merkel, Sarkozy AND Cameron but also the little countries that veto anything that doesnt fit their own unrelated agenda (eg Northern Cyprus vetoing Turkey's involvement in EU discussions with Syria which practically destroyed said discussions).

 

[sten_super]

I haven't seen full details of the proposal last night, but my instinct is that he did the right thing. We haven't got ourselves into teh hole the Euro-zone have got themselves in, and we are NOT a country that signed up to a single currency anyway. So we are already slightly on the outside, and signing up to this seemed to be giving us an equal share of the pain of recovering the single currency, that we were not part of. That didn't seem right.

They may well "blame" us for failings in the near future, but they are wrong, it's their mess from debt-ridden country NOT taking teh austerity measures when they needed to. We did, so why should WE then be signing away more of our powers as a result of Greece, Spain, Italy etc not doing the same?

This.

I don't think he could have done anything else. The Germans have their own agenda which the rest of Europe will be forced to follow to the benefit of Germany. The restrictions on the financial institutions would have hit the UK hard and cost this country too much and then waiting in the wings would be the inevitable referendum which could take us out altogether.

And this.

Sarkozy has deliberately done this - there was no compelling reason to include the financial transaction tax on the current reforms, except to alienate the British. He wants a two-speed Europe, and has got his wish. I've been broadly pro-Europe, but I'm not sure there's a huge amount of point if we're going to be ostracised from the key decision making processes. It also scares me that the leaders (particularly Sarkozy) can't see the wood from the trees and realise there's a massive crisis going on and is instead making a power grab.

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't think he could have done anything else. The Germans have their own agenda which the rest of Europe will be forced to follow to the benefit of Germany.

thats just the problem, they dont want this either. its the French driving things because they know after Italy they are next in line, their banks have massive exposure to all the weak eurozone countries so most liable to fold and take the state with them.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I haven't seen full details of the proposal last night, but my instinct is that he did the right thing. We haven't got ourselves into teh hole the Euro-zone have got themselves in, and we are NOT a country that signed up to a single currency anyway. So we are already slightly on the outside, and signing up to this seemed to be giving us an equal share of the pain of recovering the single currency, that we were not part of. That didn't seem right.

They may well "blame" us for failings in the near future, but they are wrong, it's their mess from debt-ridden country NOT taking teh austerity measures when they needed to. We did, so why should WE then be signing away more of our powers as a result of Greece, Spain, Italy etc not doing the same?

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

 

[tedebear]

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

I'm not sure these leaders do misunderstand - I just think they never realized how badly into trouble some countries can get! So bailing them out is putting too much pressure on the model.

 

[Pbseagull]

Do you think that the 'general public' are interested enough to want to know the full facts and are enthusiastic enough to act on it? and who do you believe?

I would like to think that enough of the public would be enthusiastic and interested enough to vote if given the full facts and implications, however I take your point on who's version we would believe because I'm pretty sure that we will be given many different "facts" and "Implications" from so called experts depending on their own agenda

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

So you're seriously suggesting that club members should have to bail out a a sub-club they don't belong to ?

It's not really comparing apples with apples but here goes :

Say a golf club has many members - both male and female. The males go on a bender in the club bar and can't afford the bar bill. The club could go under if it isn't paid. Therefore the female members have to pay half the bar bill even though they didn't run up the debt ?

No - the Eurozone should pay for it's own mistakes - we stayed out for a VERY good reason - it couldn't possibly work.

 

[sten_super]

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

Sorry Sully, but IMHO that's nonsense. The EU has never been, from the perspective of anyone except a few idealists, about 'all for one and one for all'. It's about how to get the best for me and mine. Hence why Germany have refused to even countenance fiscal transfers, France have made a power grab away from the supranational bodies, hell it's even the reason most of the peripheral regions (Spain, Ireland, Greece) joined the EU in the first place, to maximise their standards of living by borrowing off the back of an association with Germany.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So you're seriously suggesting that club members should have to bail out a a sub-club they don't belong to ?

It's not really comparing apples with apples but here goes :

Say a golf club has many members - both male and female. The males go on a bender in the club bar and can't afford the bar bill. The club could go under if it isn't paid. Therefore the female members have to pay half the bar bill even though they didn't run up the debt ?

No - the Eurozone should pay for it's own mistakes - we stayed out for a VERY good reason - it couldn't possibly work.

I'll also add that was never the sort of club the British voters agreed to join in the 70's - it was a common market to prevent trade barriers and nothing else ( of course the secret plan was complete integration but that was kept hidden ).

 

[aolstudios]

Cameron has been tucked up by his back benchers. i'm a eurosceptic, but this isnt the time to grandstand on europe and make a big fuss over repatriating powers. we could have boxed clever, as most of the other EU nations are in disarray over what to do, but we've just waded in with veto and look like we're stopping a solution. if this drives the 17 euro nations into their own agreement, thats probably worse for us in the long run. Much better to have gone along with some changes (fat redline on tobin tax, but then i think that was only there as a bargining chip) and supported Dutch and Finnish objections, split the German/French axis, who are so far apart on how to execute a solution, but will probably converge just to piss us off. we could have steered the ship in our favour.

yep

 

[aolstudios]

It's the standard " Standing up for Britain " Tory rubbish. Throughout history great civilizations have risen and fallen, look back at the Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans to name just a few. All have eventually fallen and become faded and weak.
Now it is our turn, we once had an empire and a third of the globe was pink but, history changes and unless we integrate and become a leader IN Europe we are destined to end up a laughing stock economy like Greece or Italy. DC thinks that he is a big player, but, in reality we are just alienating our trading partners and losing ever more influence.

and yep

 

[aolstudios]

I wonder if the Lib Dems were consulted at all about this.

titter

 

[aolstudios]

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.
Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

Two eloquent posts sully. Wish my head was clear enough to add meaningful response

 

[Gritt23]

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

Not when it comes to handing over MORE of our own powers and ability to set our own budgets. If the EU believes contries who have ignored teh need for austerity need pulling into line, and further financial assistance must come at the price of handing over additional powers then, fine, but I do not believe THAT should apply to us.

We have always baulked at the idea of too great a level of integration, and I don't think we should be rail-roaded into handing over additional powers now, because countries like Greece have fecked up their financial policies.

 

[Trufflehound]

As I read it Cameron vetoed the changes because he says regulation of the financial sector would be bad for Britain.

What utter cobblers. Regulation would only be bad for top bankers and the ruling elite. Deregulation is the root cause of making the markets and financial systems so unstable, not just now but over the past two decades, and the reason the whole world is in such a monetary mess. But that's all right because the top 1% who run things (including Cameron and his cronies) are doing very nicely out of it, while the rest of us 99% suffer.

 

[aolstudios]

As I read it Cameron vetoed the changes because he says regulation of the financial sector would be bad for Britain.

What utter cobblers. Regulation would only be bad for top bankers and the ruling elite. Deregulation is the root cause of making the markets and financial systems so unstable, not just now but over the past two decades, and the reason the whole world is in such a monetary mess. But that's all right because the top 1% who run things (including Cameron and his cronies) are doing very nicely out of it, while the rest of us 99% suffer.

can't argue

 

[Brovion]

This analysis shows a complete misunderstanding of the EU and not one just shared by this poster. The point was that if a country gets into trouble its the responsibiilty of the whole EU to get it sorted out... its the Three Musketeers all for one and for all adage. Saying its not our problem or its someone else's fault misses the point of the EU.

Unfortunately many leaders in the EU also suffer from this misunderstanding.

I think you're about as wrong as wrong can be on this. The EU has NEVER had an 'All for one' attitude. Everyone's got their own agendas.

 

[BigGully]

The most vociferous voices damning our reluctance to go along with the new Euro model are the very people that told us that we must join the Euro in the first place.

They have been proved wrong and are now damaged goods, and I wish they would show some semblance of humility.

So the Greek economy is a basket case, getta way !!!

It has always been a basket case as has Italy's and others and those politicians knew it when the embarked on this flawed enterprise.

Their judgement has been proved to be questionable and they do not deserve our support.

I am not yet ready to turn on ourselves.

I certainly do not wish to be told by others that we have some obligation to do so, after all it was you lot that relentlessly told me of the virtue of the Eurozone model in the first place !!

So please be quiet. you were wrong then and your probably wrong now !!!

 

[tedebear]

As I read it Cameron vetoed the changes because he says regulation of the financial sector would be bad for Britain.

What utter cobblers. Regulation would only be bad for top bankers and the ruling elite. Deregulation is the root cause of making the markets and financial systems so unstable, not just now but over the past two decades, and the reason the whole world is in such a monetary mess. But that's all right because the top 1% who run things (including Cameron and his cronies) are doing very nicely out of it, while the rest of us 99% suffer.

I don't understand that logic? If we allowed the EU to enforce a Tobin tax in Britian - we would derive no benefit from it - it would go to the EU, so where is the logic in allowing it? It would hit the city badly - and may potentially move businesses abroad? Losing tax as well?