Europe!

[severnside gull]

So did Cameron do the right thing? Are we destined to be exiled as the bad boys of the common market? Should we get out? Will the French and Germans spend our money on their rescue regardless of what we do?

All views welcome and will the last person left in employment please turn out the light

 

[tedebear]

I haven't read anywhere the exact details of why he's abstaining other than some vague words around protecting their involvement in our budgets and no tax on financial transactions, but it feels right to abstain at the moment, considering its never going to be the Euro anymore, its going to be the FrankoGermanicEuro....but you could have seen that coming years ago. World domination is high on Merkels agenda (she of the never print money campaign).

 

[beorhthelm]

Cameron has been tucked up by his back benchers. i'm a eurosceptic, but this isnt the time to grandstand on europe and make a big fuss over repatriating powers. we could have boxed clever, as most of the other EU nations are in disarray over what to do, but we've just waded in with veto and look like we're stopping a solution. if this drives the 17 euro nations into their own agreement, thats probably worse for us in the long run. Much better to have gone along with some changes (fat redline on tobin tax, but then i think that was only there as a bargining chip) and supported Dutch and Finnish objections, split the German/French axis, who are so far apart on how to execute a solution, but will probably converge just to piss us off. we could have steered the ship in our favour.

 

[vegster]

It's the standard " Standing up for Britain " Tory rubbish. Throughout history great civilizations have risen and fallen, look back at the Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans to name just a few. All have eventually fallen and become faded and weak.
Now it is our turn, we once had an empire and a third of the globe was pink but, history changes and unless we integrate and become a leader IN Europe we are destined to end up a laughing stock economy like Greece or Italy. DC thinks that he is a big player, but, in reality we are just alienating our trading partners and losing ever more influence.

 

[Lethargic]

It's the standard " Standing up for Britain " Tory rubbish. Throughout history great civilizations have risen and fallen, look back at the Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans to name just a few. All have eventually fallen and become faded and weak.
Now it is our turn, we once had an empire and a third of the globe was pink but, history changes and unless we integrate and become a leader IN Europe we are destined to end up a laughing stock economy like Greece or Italy. DC thinks that he is he is a big player, but, in reality we are just alienating our trading partners and losing ever more influence.

Unfortunately I think you are right on the button here and the soon we as a nation realise the better chance we have or holding our own mid league and avoiding relegation. The only way to have an influence over Europe is to part of Europe.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The Eurozone can't fix the problem they have without all 27 EU members. Cameron has fired a shot across the Eurozone bows. In all reality the Eurozone will continue to fumble along fudging the issues like they have so far. The Euro is as good as dead already.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It's the standard " Standing up for Britain " Tory rubbish. Throughout history great civilizations have risen and fallen, look back at the Egyptians, Greeks and the Romans to name just a few. All have eventually fallen and become faded and weak.
Now it is our turn, we once had an empire and a third of the globe was pink but, history changes and unless we integrate and become a leader IN Europe we are destined to end up a laughing stock economy like Greece or Italy. DC thinks that he is he is a big player, but, in reality we are just alienating our trading partners and losing ever more influence.

Alternatively, why be part of a club that is destined to fail ? There were people predicting similar doom on Britain if we didn't join the Euro - they have now been proven completely wrong.

 

[Gritt23]

I haven't seen full details of the proposal last night, but my instinct is that he did the right thing. We haven't got ourselves into teh hole the Euro-zone have got themselves in, and we are NOT a country that signed up to a single currency anyway. So we are already slightly on the outside, and signing up to this seemed to be giving us an equal share of the pain of recovering the single currency, that we were not part of. That didn't seem right.

They may well "blame" us for failings in the near future, but they are wrong, it's their mess from debt-ridden country NOT taking teh austerity measures when they needed to. We did, so why should WE then be signing away more of our powers as a result of Greece, Spain, Italy etc not doing the same?

 

[CHAPPERS]

I wonder if the Lib Dems were consulted at all about this.

 

[Badger]

I wonder if the Lib Dems were consulted at all about this.

The who??

 

[Brovion]

I haven't seen full details of the proposal last night, but my instinct is that he did the right thing. We haven't got ourselves into teh hole the Euro-zone have got themselves in, and we are NOT a country that signed up to a single currency anyway. So we are already slightly on the outside, and signing up to this seemed to be giving us an equal share of the pain of recovering the single currency, that we were not part of. That didn't seem right.

They may well "blame" us for failings in the near future, but they are wrong, it's their mess from debt-ridden country NOT taking teh austerity measures when they needed to. We did, so why should WE then be signing away more of our powers as a result of Greece, Spain, Italy etc not doing the same?

That's my initial take on it as well. However I don't know all the ins and outs so I reserve the right to change my mind as the story develops.

[I've always thought that if we had to belong to a big state and use a big currency we should join the USA and adopt the dollar. But that's another debate entirely! ]

 

[Mellotron]

Anyone else hoping this would be a thread about the band?

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Anyone else hoping this would be a thread about the band?

Yup.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

It is simple - we are not part of the Euro so should not be bailing it out, or subsidising it through punitive back door EC taxes on our financial system as proposed by Merkozy.

Instead we choose to pay towards the IMF - which has bailed us out in the past.

I find it interesting that the Euro zone supporters will tell you that other non-EC countries are just waiting to 'opt into the Euro', whereas the UK is the only country to formally opt out of these new measures. Now there is chance for the UK to form a stronger alliance with the other non-EU countries.

 

[Triggaaar]

Anyone else hoping this would be a thread about the band?

I'm pleasantly surprised about the quality of the thread so far.

 

[vegster]

Alternatively, why be part of a club that is destined to fail ? There were people predicting similar doom on Britain if we didn't join the Euro - they have now been proven completely wrong.

After about 800 years of knocking the shit out of each other, in the late 40's, Europe finally realised that war was not the way to go. Integration and a strong trading group would mean that inter-European wars would never occur again and that we would all be the better for it.
The Euro may not yet be the best way to aid this but, individual currencies can be " picked off " by the big financial organisations. Remember when George Soros said that Britain's Pound was overvalued and as such everyone dumped £'s, the Government lost Billions and Soro's and his gang picked up a huge profit. Europe is still getting the hang of working together but the alternative, ie, the fracturing of the EU will only benefit one or two countries and lead us back to the bad old days.

The British economy is not strong enough to stand on its own and as such I can forsee the big players in the City being the tail that wags the dog leading to a huge financial industry benefitting an elite few while the rest of us struggle on minimum wages in service industries buttering sandwiches.

 

[tedebear]

Its all gone a bit Eurovision Song Competition commentary on the BBC website ....

Britain also comes in for some criticism in today's German newspapers. "Brits block big plan to save euro," says Spiegel Online. The headline in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitungreads "Merkel and Sarkozy thwarted by the British", while Financial Times Deutschlandsays: "Europe goes it alone without Britain".

Today's Italian newspapers focus on Britain's role in the split at the EU summit. The leading business daily, Il Sole 24 Ore has the headline "Fiscal union only for 23 states. Cameron divides Europe into two speeds". Corriere Della Sera says "British 'no', two-speed Europe is born", a sentiment echoed in La Repubblica's headline which reads, "London's no, towards a two-speed Europe".

 

[Pbseagull]

Alternatively, why be part of a club that is destined to fail ? There were people predicting similar doom on Britain if we didn't join the Euro - they have now been proven completely wrong.

I agree, the scaremongering that was going on when we decided against going into the Euro was ridiculas, We were told that no Eurozone Country would trade with us, oversea's companies would pull out of manufacturing in Britain ie Toyota etc. None of this happened because the UK gives a shed load of money to Europe. We have an economy that enables us to change interest rates etc as and when neccersary, this is not the case with Eurozone Countries...The mindset of the various Euro countries is so different I don't think the Euro was ever going to work. Would it be such a bad thing if we came out of Europe altogether? would are competing power be too far diminished ? would noone want to trade with us? I wish I knew the answers but then I'm not an Economist, I just wish that we were given all the facts and genuine poss implications either way, and then perhaps a referendum once the electorate have been given ALL the facts!

 

[tubaman]

I don't think he could have done anything else. The Germans have their own agenda which the rest of Europe will be forced to follow to the benefit of Germany. The restrictions on the financial institutions would have hit the UK hard and cost this country too much and then waiting in the wings would be the inevitable referendum which could take us out altogether.

 

[tubaman]

I agree, the scaremongering that was going on when we decided against going into the Euro was ridiculas, We were told that no Eurozone Countriy would trade with us, oversea's companies would pull out of manufacturing in Britain ie Toyota etc. None of this happened because the UK gives a shed load of money to Europe. We have an economy that eanables us to change interest rates etc as and when neccersary, this is not the case with Eurozone Countries...The mindset of the various Euro countries is so different I don't think the Euro was ever going to work. Would it be such a bad thing if we came out of Europe all together? would are competing power be too far diminished ? would noone want to trade with us? I wish I knew the answers but then I'm not an Economist, I just wish that we were given all the facts and genuine poss implications either way, and then perhaps a referendum once the electorate have been given ALL the facts!

Do you think that the 'general public' are interested enough to want to know the full facts and are enthusiastic enough to act on it? and who do you believe?