EU and AstraZeneca

[WATFORD zero]

If I was the EU I'd be sacking my lawyers ... the publication of the contract did them no favours.

Up to that point it was two large organisations giving differing views of what had been agreed (well, they would say that, wouldn't they), but once the contract was published the EU should have stopped and re-focused on the important thing, ramping up capacity and finding alternate sources of vaccines.

There's no doubt that there were attempts at political face saving that ended up blowing up in their faces

 

[WATFORD zero]

I worry that after last night we may be getting the fall out here.

Farage won't need to go looking for groupies for a while. It's a genuine concern.

What fall out, we've left. We can hardly leave again

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

What fall out, we've left. We can hardly leave again

That is a refreshing quote. The sooner we can all leave the (dead) debate about Brexit the better. We need to get on with things whether we like it or not. And we should all take care not to forget that if a couple of politicians in the EU are stirring things up, then they are pretty much like ours and the ordinary citizens are pretty much like us as well.

 

[Eeyore]

That is a refreshing quote. The sooner we can all leave the (dead) debate about Brexit the better. We need to get on with things whether we like it or not. And we should all take care not to forget that if a couple of politicians in the EU are stirring things up, then they are pretty much like ours and the ordinary citizens are pretty much like us as well.

My wider point is that, while I have long accepted we have left and don't wish to go back, we have to be on a guard against nationalist populism.

And in the last couple of days the EU have given Farage and his nuts the biggest leg up they could have asked for.

 

[WATFORD zero]

My wider point is that, while I have long accepted we have left and don't wish to go back, we have to be on a guard against nationalist populism.

And in the last couple of days the EU have given Farage and his nuts the biggest leg up they could have asked for.

I think we were worryingly far down that path already, you only have to look at some posts on here. But that debate isn't for this thread.

 

[yxee]

so despite the EMA approval, Macron has followed the narrative that the Astrazeneca vaccine is not effective in over 65s. no proof, nothing from EMA. what is their problem with Astrazeneca?

This was incredible for me.

They've not got enough supply until summer, and this is a story that will run for MONTHS. They're worried about the fallout, and turn to this kind of rhetoric to manage demand.

But we're talking about a country with a dangerously low vaccine demand already, something like 40% of people wanted to have it. Hopefully that's rising as people see the value, but this kind of comment from Macron is extremely unhelpful to that effort.

They are gambling lives Vs politics.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I think their handling of this situation has underpinned what a patchwork quilt of an organisation the EU is, a good trading club possibly but being in charge of serious world issues & global emergency, no thanks.


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That’s was always the issue for me with Brexit. It should have been two questions. One concerning single market and the benefits thereof; and the other concerning political union. For me it would have yes and f**k off.

The EU is in for a very bad time and ironically it won’t be at the hands of Brexit.


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[Neville's Breakfast]

And yet again, without wishing to turn this into another Brexit thread, isn't that the point ? Even as a leaver I was happy with the idea of a free trade block - otherwise known as the EEC. It worked generally ( bar the butter mountains and CAP ) but the EU was a step up to become an united states of Europe. I'd have been happy to vote to stay in the EEC. What the EU have demonstrated here is that they want complete power - and they certainly haven't covered themselves in glory. Maybe it's the first step to becoming a trade block once again .... one can but hope.

I think this is a great post. If Remain had been a vote for membership of the EEC it would likely have won by a large margin

 

[Jim in the West]

This was incredible for me.

They've not got enough supply until summer, and this is a story that will run for MONTHS. They're worried about the fallout, and turn to this kind of rhetoric to manage demand.

But we're talking about a country with a dangerously low vaccine demand already, something like 40% of people wanted to have it. Hopefully that's rising as people see the value, but this kind of comment from Macron is extremely unhelpful to that effort.

They are gambling lives Vs politics.

Macron was surely playing to his domestic audience. The EU f"cked up with AZ, so the way out is to discredit the AZ vaccine. He even repeated that stuff from a German newspaper, which the German government had already said was a load of bollocks. Pure Trumpian.

 

[Nitram]

Makes a change for us Brits to have got up early in the morning and put the towels on the sunbeds.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think this is a great post. If Remain had been a vote for membership of the EEC it would likely have won by a large margin

There is a regular poster on the Brexit thread who campaigned for this throughout and, judging from the responses from leave supporters he got on there, this would not have happened. But we wouldn't want this thread about the EU and AstraZeneca to turn into a Brexit debate would we ?

Let's try and stay on topic

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Putting their ridiculous claims to one side which has been shown to be futile rubbish, the backlash within all the countries could change the EU forever returning to hopefully more of the way EEC worked. The issue not so much of time taken to come to any agreement is the fact they tried to get it on the cheap and wouldn't gamble any money on the outcome. You don't win any wars, and this one is against the virus, by being cautious. You have to take chances, almost spread betting, hoping you get more right than not.

Could you imagine the EU with an army. WOW that would a shambles.

When this is more under control and all the countries take stock not just us but the World over, hopefully the lessons will be learnt that funding into medical facilities, research, manufacture processes and joined up thinking will be so much better in the future. We can be proud that the brains, if you like, to produce effective vaccines were developed in this country. This though shouldn't stop us from allowing the data to be shared globally so it can be used everywhere. There should be agreements within the country organisations, through bodies like the G7 the WHO or such like that vaccines especially should be treated as generic drugs and non profit only for use under the circumstances the World finds itself in currently.

 

[knocky1]

My wider point is that, while I have long accepted we have left and don't wish to go back, we have to be on a guard against nationalist populism.

And in the last couple of days the EU have given Farage and his nuts the biggest leg up they could have asked for.

Yep and over the channel a Poll from a day ago put Le Pen on 48% to threaten Macron for the first time.

 

[Eeyore]

Yep and over the channel a Poll from a day ago put Le Pen on 48% to threaten Macron for the first time.

I didn't realise it was that bad.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

That’s was always the issue for me with Brexit. It should have been two questions. One concerning single market and the benefits thereof; and the other concerning political union. For me it would have yes and f**k off.

The EU is in for a very bad time and ironically it won’t be at the hands of Brexit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Absolutely. What always upset me about the debate was that the EU is clearly a flawed democracy with the Commission, as an appointed not elected body creates law/regulation and governance. It is clearly and unarguably the wrong way around. Politicians should create policy and law, not those appointed. Anyone who critically studied EU constitutional law, how regulation is created and the principle of how that law/regulation then has Direct Effect cannot really be comfortable with it. However this unease has always been buried in the UK so not to rock the boat as it was thought it was better to be in than out.

Equally we have to remember that before the EU, much of the 27's governance was even worse. Portugal, a military dictatorship until 1980's, Spain, Facist until the 1970's and so it goes on. It's therefore not in anyone's interests that it falls apart. The EU should consider how it delivers democratic accountability. However, it is unlikely that many of the politicians of Europe fully understand or trust democracy. As with all areas of the world without a long democratic tradition, democracy is not fully trusted, then of course there is self interest and in more than one member state, criminality at the heart of government.

For me, the economics of the EU (not being an optimal currency area) indicates to me that member states must look to assert democratic control properly. But either way, if this vaccine does nothing other than focus the mind of the democratic lack of accountability of the Commission then some good will come of it. I would also say that in all of this, people in Europe will lose their lives and jobs as a result of the Commission's mistakes in the vaccine procurement process. I think that shouldn't be lost when people think of this. it's not an abstract point, it's real people, with real lives. The EU really isn't all bad, in fact it mirrors some of the flaws of ot's member states. Those flaws wont vanish should the EU fold. But equally, it is not a liberal democracy as many try to assert.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Pure Trumpian.

Sadly the EU has a lot of contenders for this unwanted title at the moment.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

There is a regular poster on the Brexit thread who campaigned for this throughout and, judging from the responses from leave supporters he got on there, this would not have happened. But we wouldn't want this thread about the EU and AstraZeneca to turn into a Brexit debate would we ?

Let's try and stay on topic

Quite right

 

[vegster]

Putting their ridiculous claims to one side which has been shown to be futile rubbish, the backlash within all the countries could change the EU forever returning to hopefully more of the way EEC worked. The issue not so much of time taken to come to any agreement is the fact they tried to get it on the cheap and wouldn't gamble any money on the outcome. You don't win any wars, and this one is against the virus, by being cautious. You have to take chances, almost spread betting, hoping you get more right than not.

Could you imagine the EU with an army. WOW that would a shambles.

When this is more under control and all the countries take stock not just us but the World over, hopefully the lessons will be learnt that funding into medical facilities, research, manufacture processes and joined up thinking will be so much better in the future. We can be proud that the brains, if you like, to produce effective vaccines were developed in this country. This though shouldn't stop us from allowing the data to be shared globally so it can be used everywhere. There should be agreements within the country organisations, through bodies like the G7 the WHO or such like that vaccines especially should be treated as generic drugs and non profit only for use under the circumstances the World finds itself in currently.

Definitely this .... I think we had a close shave with Ebola and closer co-operation should have been ramped up then, the trouble is many countries are small minded and insular, that changes when the casualties rack up but by then its too late.

 

[vegster]

Macron was surely playing to his domestic audience. The EU f"cked up with AZ, so the way out is to discredit the AZ vaccine. He even repeated that stuff from a German newspaper, which the German government had already said was a load of bollocks. Pure Trumpian.

I can't see the problem ? Until last November Trump was lauded by many politicians on this side of the Pond as being a strong and decisive leader, Johnson and Farage were so far up his arse all you could see was their toenails. So, what changed that makes " Trumpian " so derogatory now ?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I can't see the problem ? Until last November Trump was lauded by many politicians on this side of the Pond as being a strong and decisive leader, Johnson and Farage were so far up his arse all you could see was their toenails. So, what changed that makes " Trumpian " so derogatory now ?

Bit of a daft post really. Sorry