Easter - I dont get it

[Lord Bracknell]

LB I did not describe paganism as a religion, it as I understand it is a spiritual belief, just as a belief in god is. It's as much hooey as any other spiritual belief as far as I am concerned. And any organised collection of it is as useless as other organised collections (organised religons) and hopefully they will be with the consultants and administrators the first on the Ark, oops slipping into marvin...

it is however the name that has been given to what was being celebrated at the time that Christianity started to pollute this country. I did not name it as such and I would not have any other name for it, but it does help peoples understanding of it. Or would you prefer I said heathen devil worshiping celebrations?

My point is that most of what people claim to know about pre-Christian England is based not upon any scholarship or genuine understanding of pre-Christian culture, but upon invented fantasies about the past (most of which are much more recent than people realise).

The so-called "Druids" are an example - they were invented only a few hundred years ago and ideas about the belief system of the Druids have changed from generation to generation. The truth is ... we know bugger all about the belief systems that prevailed in pre-Christian England (except that some people - you, for example - like to think they were "heathen devil worshippers").

I just find it odd that perfectly rational individuals (who are quite happy to dismiss modern-day religion as nonsense) are content to believe fairy stories about ancient cultures that are based on no evidence whatsoever (except hearsay).

The paradox is that these same perfectly rational individuals denigrate believers in religion as people who believe fairy stories that are equally based on no evidence.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Juan Albion picked up on my thought ( I've arrived a bit late to the thread so forgive me if I repeat),
BUT what I don't get is Christmas was when he was born and as far as I can make out, that's 25 th December every year, right?!
So, if he dies on a set date why does that move around every year?
I'm sure that when I die (if anyone notices at all) they certainly won't remember the anniversary on some different obscure date a month and a half either way !
What's that all about?
For Falmer's Sake !

Try this for an explanation.

 

[Juan Albion]

If Timco was talking 'pagan' in relation to the setting of the Easter date, he was, presumably, talking about paganism outside of England (although given the accuracy of everything else he has said, that might not be the case!), such as those in Rome, I believe.

 

[beorhthelm]

for what its worth, my 2p...

To start, as Lord B quite rightly points out, there's no definitive thing that can be called "Pagan": by definition a pagan someone who does not believe in god, originally relating to Christianity and Judaism, then including Islam and laterly including Buddism, Hindu etc. Therefore, any "religion" or belief system outside the scope of established canon is considered to be Paganism. Note that this is, by its nature and by political correctness, a rather arbitrary rule.

So we can define any European belief system that predates Christianity as being pagan. There is little evidence for what most these people actually believed or how they worshipped, but it accepted that the predomiant obsession was with the changing seasons (as youd expect from a bunch of farmers).

Given this, it becomes a little bit of a coincidence that three key dates of importance for Chistianity are at the same time as definable points in the year which would have also lent themselves to pagan festivals: Spring equinox = Easter, Autumn Equinox = All Souls/Saints and Winter Solstice = Christmas.

Or maybe its not coincidence, given the nature of the celebrations conducted at those times. The date of Easter is on the first sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. It is supposed to represent, in pagan terms, fertility since this is the start of spring. Fertility? Eggs? Rogering bunnies? Coincidence? All Souls/Saints day has diminished in importance somewhat (mainly due to 16th/17th Century puritan attempts to strip Christiainity of any festivity), but was a celebration of the dead. From a pagan perspective, the autumn equinox could be seen as being festival of death as the world around you dies off... Christmas is about birth and new beginning, just as the winter solstice would be viewed as the start of the new year.

The main religion that Christianity supplanted was that of the Romans. Christianity didnt spring forth fully formed (nor from the brow of a goddess) but developed over some few hundred years. As Christianity spread through the Roman Empire, it would have done so against a backdrop of existing pagan (ie Roman multi-deity) beliefs and festivities. So it comes as little wonder that the two would merge somewhat.

The proto-clerics of the 3rd and 4th centries would have preached of the birth of Christ and of the Ressurrection, but would have needed to put some sort of context on these and the winter and spring festivials and their connotations would have fitted neatly. Given the lack of precise records at the time and the mucking about with the Julian calander over the ages, any "date" on which to pin these events would be completly arbitrary. Items ive read that try to accurately place the year of birth for the preacher from Nazereth range decades either side of 0AD/BC, so how can you expect an actual date of birth or death to be correct?

 

[Juan Albion]

Pretty good, but you miss the fact that the date for Easter was originally defined at the Council of Nicaea and that their formula was probably their way of saying the Sunday after Passover. Don't forget that the Crucifixion is very firmly dated in the Gospels as having occurred at the time of Passover so there was little likelihood of Easter ever being at any other time of the year (sorry Timco)! The date of Passover is decided by the moon, since the Hebrew calendar was very much based on lunar cycles.

Apart from anything else, Christians celebrate the deeds, not the dates. They could be any day of the year and it wouldn't make much difference - except Easter, for the aforementioned reason.

 

[tedebear]

So God is a Teddy Bear ? So is a Teddy Bears picnic a big religious service ? Are they a cult ? My missus once wore a Teddy and I said good god.

Of course I am god !!

But something seems wrong - if I am god why do I have a hangover!!

 

[Hungry Joe.]

Great thread again, learned a lot. Most of the more academic stuff is over my head on this subject so I'll stick to a simplistic, pragmatic view;

Easter, whatever dates it falls on, is a symbolic time for Christians to celebrate something very important to them. What's wrong with that?

It gives (most) non-believers a few extra days of work to exercise their free will and do whatever they want with this spare time. What's wrong with that?

No-one is holding a gun to anyone's head.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

At the end of the day, its all about faith and belief.

If you believe that an individual called Jusus of Nazarea ( or nazareth) was the "messiah" as predicted in Hebrew texts and was the Son of God then, the dating of ceremonies is irrelevant.

As for commercialising Easter/Christmas etc, to be honest this has gone on in finitum. One of the best moneyspinners the Catholic Church had for centuries was selling "relics", so called "bones of Christ". After a war, you will see people trying to make a buck out of selling anything they can from the battlefield, even today we see items on EBAY for items supposedly recovered from Iraq.

I know the Vicar of Dibley was not the best program ever, but one bit taken from the Christmas show, summed it all up.

They were talking about the greatest story ever told, which people were were bringing examples, Geraldine stopped them and said something along the lines of.......Over 2000 years ago, a baby was born in poverty in an occupied country. As he grew up, he began to question the teachings of his religion and eventually, after preaching to people to actually be nice to each other ( turn the other cheek) he was betrayed by one of his crew for a small amount of money, he was tried and put to death in a horriby cruel way - no quick bullet or hanging......Now because of that one person, millions of people live their life by his teachings and believe that he was someone special.

Now on NSC you get a broad church, those who do not believe, those who may do but dont want to give the impression they do and those who do believe. At the end of the day, the only way we will find out if there is a God or not is when we die, and no-one has come back ( apart from Jesus if you believe that) to tell us if He/She/It actually exists.

The only thing I would say is, I would not presume to rubbish or insult anyone who held or doesn't hold religious beliefs, because it is very easy and cheap to do so as there is no answer to it - we don't know. All I would say is, if people learned to tollerate each other and not look to antagonise and persecute people this world would be a much safer place.

dave clambering off his soapbox

 

[tedebear]

hear hear Dave - feel free to get on your soapbox anytime!!

careful though its a long way down from there!

 

[Hungry Joe.]

At the end of the day, its all about faith and belief.

If you believe that an individual called Jusus of Nazarea ( or nazareth) was the "messiah" as predicted in Hebrew texts and was the Son of God then, the dating of ceremonies is irrelevant.

As for commercialising Easter/Christmas etc, to be honest this has gone on in finitum. One of the best moneyspinners the Catholic Church had for centuries was selling "relics", so called "bones of Christ". After a war, you will see people trying to make a buck out of selling anything they can from the battlefield, even today we see items on EBAY for items supposedly recovered from Iraq.

I know the Vicar of Dibley was not the best program ever, but one bit taken from the Christmas show, summed it all up.

They were talking about the greatest story ever told, which people were were bringing examples, Geraldine stopped them and said something along the lines of.......Over 2000 years ago, a baby was born in poverty in an occupied country. As he grew up, he began to question the teachings of his religion and eventually, after preaching to people to actually be nice to each other ( turn the other cheek) he was betrayed by one of his crew for a small amount of money, he was tried and put to death in a horriby cruel way - no quick bullet or hanging......Now because of that one person, millions of people live their life by his teachings and believe that he was someone special.

Now on NSC you get a broad church, those who do not believe, those who may do but dont want to give the impression they do and those who do believe. At the end of the day, the only way we will find out if there is a God or not is when we die, and no-one has come back ( apart from Jesus if you believe that) to tell us if He/She/It actually exists.

The only thing I would say is, I would not presume to rubbish or insult anyone who held or doesn't hold religious beliefs, because it is very easy and cheap to do so as there is no answer to it - we don't know. All I would say is, if people learned to tollerate each other and not look to antagonise and persecute people this world would be a much safer place.

dave clambering off his soapbox

Well said. Would only take issue with one thing you said in relation to those on NSC. There is a 4th catagoury; those who admit they just don't know but believe that proof of God(s) is impossible.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Regarding the existance of God,I tend to come from the point of view of " why not?"

I find it incredible that something as wonderful and complex as the human body has depveloped by pure chance.

 

[Hungry Joe.]

Regarding the existance of God,I tend to come from the point of view of " why not?"

I find it incredible that something as wonderful and complex as the human body has depveloped by pure chance.

Again I tend to agree with you on that. The interesting thing is that Atheists have more in common with religious poeple than the "why not'ers" or "not sure'ers". To either accept or deny the existence of God requires an act of faith as proof either way is, by nature, beyond our comprehension or abilities (unless you believe that science can or will one day supply proof). Therefore Atheism is a religion or sorts, the religion of denial.
I, like most Agnostics I know, hope that there is more to existence than birth, school, work, death, but I just don't know.

 

[timco]

Don't forget that the Crucifixion is very firmly dated in the Gospels as having occurred at the time of Passover so there was little likelihood of Easter ever being at any other time of the year (sorry Timco)! The date of Passover is decided by the moon, since the Hebrew calendar was very much based on lunar cycles.

What you sorry for? Rather presumes that i believe that the gospels are anything but made up nonsense. Got news for you the gospels,in my view, are made up to fit the facts that were required at the time they were written. They were not contemprianious and I doubt even deluded christians could believe that anymore.

If you were to try and use the "evidence" in the bible in a court of law it would be thrown out as hearsay.

Can i ask do you believe all of the bible? if not what bits don't you believe and what bits do you believe?

 

[Dandyman]

Poor logic, there, Marv. Christianity is an organized religion and so by saying 'organized religion' you have, by definition, included Christianity. If, as I suggest, Christianity has certainly done the world plenty of good, your statement is bogus. Simple as that. QED. Therefore my statement was perfectly valid.

Marv, the dates I gave you are all dependent on the date of Easter, which is variable (gee, those seasons must be inconsistent as well!). Therefore there is no set date for them. Which is strange given that you tell me that Easter is based on some pagan festival date...

And even junior school kids know that pancakes are the old tradition of using up the things that Catholics believed weren't meant to be eaten during Lent. Someone already said that, I think.

And still waiting for the bits of paganism that are assimilated into Easter. Hurry up, please, I need to know, so that I can make sure I take them out of my sermon for Sunday.


BTW, I could refer you to a website run by football hooligans. Would you base your judgement of football fans based on their website? ? [/QUOTE]

I always thought eggs were a pagan fertility symbol, but that aside Christianity is of course based on a bunch of splitters from Judaism which this year has/will celebrate Pesach (Passover) on 06 April, Shavuot (Pentecost) on 26 May and Hanukkah on 08 December. No coincidence on these dates roughly matching those of the Christian calendar ? Timco comments about the crafting of Christian dates onto earlier Pagan ones in this country seems common sense to me. Rites of Spring and Saturnalia are events linked to changes of the seasons (and hence light, food, harvests) which are common to most pre-modern societies and some might suggest have echoes in Harvest festival.

I don't think Timco was suggesting the liturgy of the Anglican or RC churchs was based on pagan ritual (although communion always seems a rather odd ritual to me) rather that a lot of the everyday folk rituals are non-christian on origin.

p.s. What's the home end at St. Peters ?

 

[Dandyman]

Again I tend to agree with you on that. The interesting thing is that Atheists have more in common with religious poeple than the "why not'ers" or "not sure'ers". To either accept or deny the existence of God requires an act of faith as proof either way is, by nature, beyond our comprehension or abilities (unless you believe that science can or will one day supply proof). Therefore Atheism is a religion or sorts, the religion of denial.
I, like most Agnostics I know, hope that there is more to existence than birth, school, work, death, but I just don't know.

Atheism is not based on a blind faith. It is the concept that to accept something as true there needs to be verifiable evidence of it. Religion by contrast is based on blind faith in something for which no scientific evidence has ever been produced, despite several thousand years of opportunity.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Atheism is not based on a blind faith. It is the concept that to accept something as true there needs to be verifiable evidence of it. Religion by contrast is based on blind faith in something for which no scientific evidence has ever been produced, despite several thousand years of opportunity.

or just 'cancel easter, they found they body' as some para wrote on a pub wall in Aldershot many years ago.

 

[Hungry Joe.]

Atheism is not based on a blind faith. It is the concept that to accept something as true there needs to be verifiable evidence of it. Religion by contrast is based on blind faith in something for which no scientific evidence has ever been produced, despite several thousand years of opportunity.

You are confusing Atheism with Agnosticism. Atheism is the denial of God or Gods and hence is a belief. Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God cannot be proven.

 

[zefarelly]

religion . . . . .its all a load of bollocks basically isnt it.

sorry to diss it if you like believing old stories, but the only decent fact here so far is Crabtrees reminder of the Adur beer festival, now thats well worth a few days holiday

oh . . .and Tedebear is a goddess

 

[beorhthelm]

Pretty good, but you miss the fact that the date for Easter was originally defined at the Council of Nicaea and that their formula was probably their way of saying the Sunday after Passover. Don't forget that the Crucifixion is very firmly dated in the Gospels as having occurred at the time of Passover so there was little likelihood of Easter ever being at any other time of the year (sorry Timco)! The date of Passover is decided by the moon, since the Hebrew calendar was very much based on lunar cycles.

Apart from anything else, Christians celebrate the deeds, not the dates. They could be any day of the year and it wouldn't make much difference - except Easter, for the aforementioned reason.

I can see you a man of strong faith, Fair play to you Juan. Particularly good point about the deeds.

However, what a Roman Catholic Council does or doesnt decide is somewhat irrelevent, they can fit the story to match the existing calander, especially 300 years after the event. The references to Passover could just as easily been put in to fit, after all the gospels arent contemporary accounts with all but Mark written after ~65AD. And Paul was a Greek, so would have had been exposed to pagen beliefs (was he even raised a jew?).

Then again it might well all be quite accurate, and like you say its the deed that really matters not the actuall date. But then why do we have the Eggs at easter? That was really what i was getting at, that the festivals have merged.

 

[Hungry Joe.]

religion . . . . .its all a load of bollocks basically isnt it.

sorry to diss it if you like believing old stories, but the only decent fact here so far is Crabtrees reminder of the Adur beer festival, now thats well worth a few days holiday

oh . . .and Tedebear is a goddess

That is a good reminder. I'll be there with my Welsh, London and Bristolian clan who never miss it.

I haven't met Tedebear to my knowledge but she does seem nice.