[Politics] Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

[WATFORD zero]

I wasnt no. It was the part of Cummings evidence where he explained that he was in a meeting with the PM. Then a "top official" (sorry I didnt make a note of her name) burst into the meeting in a state of distress and said "We are fkd, the disaster plan, well its not been done, we dont have one and we are going to kill thousands of people". The PM, Cummings and all then had to create one from scratch. I'm sorry but the Civil Service should have had a plan updated on an annual basis. There just is no excuse. Should a PM check every time he is elected by asking to see it? Well I don't think this is hindsight but yes I think he should. Every CEO of a large corporate would want to see it regularly. So yes I do criticise the PM as well.

If you look at the sources on the post I made you will see there were a number of plans which the Head of the Civil Service was fully aware of.

Whether they were fit for purpose is another question and if not, why not, although you'll see that the second part I added to my post makes it quite clear what the then head of the Civil Service thought was behind it not being as effective as it could have been.

I'm sorry but all your posts on this to date have been based on 'The head of the civil service not knowing if there was a plan' which is just blatantly untrue

And Johnson and Cummings making up one on the fly is quite simply beyond ridiculous

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

If you look at the sources on the post I made you will see there were a number of plans which the Head of the Civil Service was fully aware of.

Whether they were fit for purpose is another question and if not, why not, although you'll see that the second part I added to my post makes it quite clear what the then head of the Civil Service thought was behind it not being as effective as it could have been.

I'm sorry but all your posts on this to date have been based on 'The head of the civil service not knowing if there was a plan' which is just blatantly untrue

And Johnson and Cummings making up one on the fly is quite simply beyond ridiculous

I was commenting on the evidence given by Cummings. His evidence was that 1. The PM asked for the disaster plan 2. The head of the civil service was asked for it and 3. It was only at that point that the Civil Service realised that they didnt have one. That is what Cummings said. Shall we agree that if that is true then the head of the civil service needs to be fired? I also would say they also need to be fired for not having a decent one even if they had an empty word document called "disaster plan". Equally yes every PM elected should see it and sign it off on an annual basis so fault rests there as well. I just hope the military have plans for the defence of the UK just in case.. and that the PM checks them on a yearly basis also.

 

[Stato]

I wasnt no. It was the part of Cummings evidence where he explained that he was in a meeting with the PM. Then a "top official" (sorry I didnt make a note of her name) burst into the meeting in a state of distress and said "We are fkd, the disaster plan, well its not been done, we dont have one and we are going to kill thousands of people". The PM, Cummings and all then had to create one from scratch. I'm sorry but the Civil Service should have had a plan updated on an annual basis. There just is no excuse. Should a PM check every time he is elected by asking to see it? Well I don't think this is hindsight but yes I think he should. Every CEO of a large corporate would want to see it regularly. So yes I do criticise the PM as well.

He wasn't with Johnson, he was with Ben Warner. From the Guardian's live blog on the day:

"He says at that point Helen MacNamara, the second most powerful civil servant, came in. She said she had been speaking to a Department of Health official who said that there was no plan and that the government was in trouble. She said they were “absolutely ****ed”, he says. She said the country was heading for disaster. She realised that Cummings and Warner had come to the same conclusion."

From Cummings report of the words of MacNamara who in turn was interpreting a message given to her by an unnamed DoH official you have extrapolated that the civil service hadn't done what cabinet and ministers had instructed them to do. There are many ways of interpreting this here-say: There could have not been a plan, there could have been a plan that MacNamara or the DoH Official thought wasn't adequate to the unprecendented circumstances. The DoH official could have been talking about the disaster plan or he could have been talking about the lack of a plan from Government. Its not really evidence of anything.

You have called for people to lose their jobs on the basis of one remark you misremembered made by someone who none of us trust without corroboration, explanation or investigation. We all need to reel it in until more is known. The immediate need is for an early enquiry.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

He wasn't with Johnson, he was with Ben Warner. From the Guardian's live blog on the day:

"He says at that point Helen MacNamara, the second most powerful civil servant, came in. She said she had been speaking to a Department of Health official who said that there was no plan and that the government was in trouble. She said they were “absolutely ****ed”, he says. She said the country was heading for disaster. She realised that Cummings and Warner had come to the same conclusion."

From Cummings report of the words of MacNamara who in turn was interpreting a message given to her by an unnamed DoH official you have extrapolated that the civil service hadn't done what cabinet and ministers had instructed them to do. There are many ways of interpreting this here-say: There could have not been a plan, there could have been a plan that MacNamara or the DoH Official thought wasn't adequate to the unprecendented circumstances. The DoH official could have been talking about the disaster plan or he could have been talking about the lack of a plan from Government. Its not really evidence of anything.

You have called for people to lose their jobs on the basis of one remark you misremembered made by someone who none of us trust without corroboration, explanation or investigation. We all need to reel it in until more is known. The immediate need is for an early enquiry.

I called for the civil service to take responsibility for not doing what they were asked to do. They were asked to produce a disaster plan (in the same way that every large corporate has one that is reviewed regularly). They didnt do it. Beyond belief.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I was commenting on the evidence given by Cummings. His evidence was that 1. The PM asked for the disaster plan 2. The head of the civil service was asked for it and 3. It was only at that point that the Civil Service realised that they didnt have one. That is what Cummings said. Shall we agree that if that is true then the head of the civil service needs to be fired? I also would say they also need to be fired for not having a decent one even if they had an empty word document called "disaster plan". Equally yes every PM elected should see it and sign it off on an annual basis so fault rests there as well. I just hope the military have plans for the defence of the UK just in case.. and that the PM checks them on a yearly basis also.

You seem to be getting confused. Last post you said it was some 'top official' in a state of distress saying 'we're f***ed. Now you have gone back to saying that Johnson asked Mark Sedwell for the plan and Sedwell at that point he 'realised' he didn't have one

I have posted two interviews with Mark Sedwell where he talks about the plans and their prioritisation, funding and effectiveness, which does tend to indicate that there were plans and he was aware of them.

Can you provide a source for these claims that Cummings made about asking for a plan, the civil service saying they did not have one and Cummings and Johnson then making one up ?

Thanks

It's just that I find what you are saying to be beyond belief.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

You seem to be getting confused. Last post you said it was some 'top official' in a state of distress saying 'we're f***ed. Now you have gone back to saying that Johnson asked Mark Sedwell for the plan and Sedwell realised he didn't have one

I have posted two interviews with Mark Sedwell where he talks about the plans and there effectiveness, which tend to indicate that there were plans and he was aware of them.

Can you provide a source for these claims that Cummings made about asking for a plan, the civil service saying they did not have one and Cummings and Johnson then making one up ?

Thanks

Im not a posting links person but expect if you google the evidence given by Cummings then you will find it. I watched / listened to it all day live when working at home. And I watched this bit. It was clear the PM was expecting to see the disaster recovery plan but when asked for it there wasnt one or one that was remotely close to being finished. For all purposes, there simply wasnt one. The government then had to work from there. Did Cummings make that up? I doubt it, because it will be clear whether there was a plan or wasnt. I think Cummings made some interesting points in the days evidence, as well as some stuff thrown in to create a headline. I'd also agree he came across as both defensive and some other not so good things. But either there was a disaster plan in a bounded document delivered to the PM in a nice red ribbon that was worth the paper it was written on or there wasnt. If there wasnt, planks need to be walked at the civil service.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

We had Exercise Cygnus in 2016.

The problem was that this was for an influenza pandemic and not a coronavirus one.

I've no idea if any of the recommendations from it were ever implemented.

 

[Bodian]

Im not a posting links person but expect if you google the evidence given by Cummings then you will find it. I watched / listened to it all day live when working at home. And I watched this bit. It was clear the PM was expecting to see the disaster recovery plan but when asked for it there wasnt one or one that was remotely close to being finished. For all purposes, there simply wasnt one. The government then had to work from there. Did Cummings make that up? I doubt it, because it will be clear whether there was a plan or wasnt. I think Cummings made some interesting points in the days evidence, as well as some stuff thrown in to create a headline. I'd also agree he came across as both defensive and some other not so good things. But either there was a disaster plan in a bounded document delivered to the PM in a nice red ribbon that was worth the paper it was written on or there wasnt. If there wasnt, planks need to be walked at the civil service.

This from Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/there-was-no-plan-cummingss-key-claims-on-early-pandemic-strategy-12317238

Plan B came into effect when government realised 'we're absolutely f****d'

Mr Cummings said that on 13 March 2020, then-Deputy Cabinet Secretary Helen Macnamara came to see him to say the initial government plan would not work, and they would need a "Plan B".

He described her saying: "We're going to have to ditch the whole plan and we're heading for the biggest disaster this country has seen since 1940. I've been told for years that there's a whole plan for this, (but) there is no plan, we're in huge trouble.

"I think we're absolutely f****d and we're going to kill thousands of people."

Basically saying that the 'plan' (presumably herd immunity given Cummings' other comments) wasn't going to work. Didn't say that the PM had asked for a plan to be drawn up and the civil service hadn't. Nor did she say that it was the civil service who had been 'pretending' that there was a plan. She could equally have been meaning that the civil service had been told by the ministers that there was a plan.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

This from Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/there-was-no-plan-cummingss-key-claims-on-early-pandemic-strategy-12317238

Plan B came into effect when government realised 'we're absolutely f****d'

Mr Cummings said that on 13 March 2020, then-Deputy Cabinet Secretary Helen Macnamara came to see him to say the initial government plan would not work, and they would need a "Plan B".

He described her saying: "We're going to have to ditch the whole plan and we're heading for the biggest disaster this country has seen since 1940. I've been told for years that there's a whole plan for this, (but) there is no plan, we're in huge trouble.

"I think we're absolutely f****d and we're going to kill thousands of people."

Basically saying that the 'plan' (presumably herd immunity given Cummings' other comments) wasn't going to work. Didn't say that the PM had asked for a plan to be drawn up and the civil service hadn't. Nor did she say that it was the civil service who had been 'pretending' that there was a plan. She could equally have been meaning that the civil service had been told by the ministers that there was a plan.

Yes thanks for posting. I have a policy of not clicking on links and I dont post them. The plan that was ditched was the disaster plan that every corporate has but the civil service had failed to deliver.

There was also evidence about Cummings sharing with a Cambridge expert (I think it was Cambridge) the herd immunity assumptions that the government had been advised to work on. Cummings expert then apparently ripped them to shreds and the thrust of the response changed. Whether that is right, wrong, partly right, self serving and over eggs his role in changing tack will no doubt be up for debate.

 

[Stato]

I called for the civil service to take responsibility for not doing what they were asked to do. They were asked to produce a disaster plan (in the same way that every large corporate has one that is reviewed regularly). They didnt do it. Beyond belief.

Yes it does seem beyond belief, but then you seem to be the only person here who actually does believe it. You have made your own interpretation of what Cummings said. He didn't say that the civil service were asked to produce a disaster plan and didn't. That's what you have heard and decided is the truth. The only person that he actually said told a lie about preparedness was Matt Hancock who he said assured him and others that the Department of Health's plan was regularly reviewed and updated and was up to the task.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it's very difficult to argue the implications without agreement on the evidence that was given. Multiple posters have quoted sources to show that what you think was said wasn't what was actually said. You have not provided anything to prove otherwise, but continue to argue that Cummings' evidence said something that none of the rest of us heard.

 

[Bodian]

The plan that was ditched was the disaster plan that every corporate has but the civil service had failed to deliver.

But this totally contradicts all your previous stuff about the civil service being asked to devise a plan and not doing so. You now seem to be changing your tune to 'the civil service had a plan but didn't deliver it'. A totally different argument.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The DC 'revelations' appear to have made little impact on the electorate, polling after his comments still show a double-digit Tory lead ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Settles down to fill in the usual Gaslit, gullible, Daily Mail, hoodwinked, morons, Murdoch, voting against their own interests, bingo checklist on my 'patronising bellend' card

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

But this totally contradicts all your previous stuff about the civil service being asked to devise a plan and not doing so. You now seem to be changing your tune to 'the civil service had a plan but didn't deliver it'. A totally different argument.

No mate. Firstly its not my argument. Alll I have tried to say is thatDC evidence was that when the disaster plan was asked for, the civil service didnt have one. A disaster plan is something that is (well should be) in place permanently and updated regularly. DC accusation is that they didnt have a working one. Either they did or didnt. But if they didnt then planks need to be walked at the civil service. It's as simple as that.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No mate. Firstly its not my argument. Alll I have tried to say is thatDC evidence was that when the disaster plan was asked for, the civil service didnt have one. A disaster plan is something that is (well should be) in place permanently and updated regularly. DC accusation is that they didnt have a working one. Either they did or didnt. But if they didnt then planks need to be walked at the civil service. It's as simple as that.

I don't know what you think a 'disaster plan' consists of, but as has been pointed out to you numerous times, there were a whole series of documented 'disaster plans' in place that everyone was aware of

For you to keep insisting differently, because of 'something you heard whilst working' of which there you have no record, and when you are shown numerous sources to the contrary, you refuse to read because you 'don't click on links' quite frankly makes you look (and I don't really want to say this) a complete and utter idiot.

Unless of course, you are yet another account of [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] or maybe another poster who has discovered VPNs in which case it is completely understandable and my best wishes and sympathies go to the mods

 

[Chicken Run]

The DC 'revelations' appear to have made little impact on the electorate, polling after his comments still show a double-digit Tory lead ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Settles down to fill in the usual Gaslit, gullible, Daily Mail, hoodwinked, morons, Murdoch, voting against their own interests, bingo checklist on my 'patronising bellend' card

Don’t forget Turkeys voting for Christmas?


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[Bry Nylon]

Settles down to fill in the usual Gaslit, gullible, Daily Mail, hoodwinked, morons, Murdoch, voting against their own interests, bingo checklist on my 'patronising bellend' card

Please, give it a rest. Everybody else on this thread seems to have agreed to leave the digs out and just play the ball and not the man and NSC is so much the better for it.

 

[Chicken Run]

Please, give it a rest. Everybody else on this thread seems to have agreed to leave the digs out and just play the ball and not the man and NSC is so much the better for it.

For you to keep insisting differently, because of 'something you heard whilst working' of which there you have no record, and when you are shown numerous sources to the contrary, you refuse to read because you 'don't click on links' quite frankly makes you look (and I don't really want to say this) a complete and utter idiot.

Unless of course, you are yet another account of [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] or maybe another poster who has discovered VPNs in which case it is completely understandable and my best wishes and sympathies go to the mods

Mmmm [emoji1745]


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[Bry Nylon]

Mmmm [emoji1745]


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Yes. I just saw that after I had posted. Same applies.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

I don't know what you think a 'disaster plan' consists of, but as has been pointed out to you numerous times, there were a whole series of documented 'disaster plans' in place that everyone was aware of

For you to keep insisting differently, because of 'something you heard whilst working' of which there you have no record, and when you are shown numerous sources to the contrary, you refuse to read because you 'don't click on links' quite frankly makes you look (and I don't really want to say this) a complete and utter idiot.

Unless of course, you are yet another account of [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] or maybe another poster who has discovered VPNs in which case it is completely understandable

What do I think the disaster plan should look like? Why do you think I should have any view on that whatsoever? No nobody has proven anything to anyone by posting links of newspaper articles and the like. I watched it and DC clearly alleged that when the disaster plan was asked for, there wasn't a working one and they had to start from scratch. Watch it yourself. Don't read articles, or listen to commentary (opinions of others) go to the primary source (which I did as I watched it live) and make your own mind up. Either way, can we agree that if there was not a working disaster plan then planks at the civil service need walking? Or do I need to have drafted one before you think I can form that opinion? What an utterly daft debate.

 

[Chicken Run]

Dominic Cummings v H&SC and S&T select committees *Official Match Thread*

Yes. I just saw that after I had posted. Same applies.

Well quote him then sir!


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