Dick Knight/Tony Bloom

[Gwylan]

Are we talking at cross purposes?

Liverpool have not got a new ground because of funding issues, yet as you said, they received planning permission in 2002. Conversely, it took us ten years to get planning permission ...

Er...B&H Council gave us planning permission in 2002 - exactly the same year as Liverpool council gave planning permission to Liverpool

Really, but they're in debt and have been for a number of years.

Richest Clubs In The World Top 20 List | FootyBlog.net

Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man U are the top three and they all have debt too

 

[beorhthelm]

okay. Maybe I am wrong and that in the whole of the UK only one JCB digger was available at that moment in time.

JCBs, plus drivers, plus surveyors, plus engineers, plus project managers, plus cranes, pile drivers etc etc. this isnt knocking up a 4 bed detached, theres a bit more logisitcs involved then renting a JCB and getting a delivery from Travis Perkins.

 

[Bozza]

Richest Clubs In The World Top 20 List | FootyBlog.net

Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man U are the top three and they all have debt too

It's rubbish though isn't it? When has revenue generation ever used as a meaningful indication of 'richness'?

 

[Simster]

Er...B&H Council gave us planning permission in 2002 - exactly the same year as Liverpool council gave planning permission to Liverpool

OK, so are you saying that the delays for Liverpool since 2002 have not been entirely down to funding?

 

[El Presidente]

Falmer wouldn't have been built, but for our rich sugar daddy.

You are probably right, but we have one, and he was connected to the board via his uncle for some time before producing the wonga.

In other words, if not for Tony Bloom's cash pile, we'd be in a worse position than Liverpool.

Nahhh, we wouldn't have a football club, but we would never be worse than Liverpool.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Really, this is all a "if my granny had bollocks" conversation. Things happened how they happened and such is life.

I don't see how anyone can argue about the planning process though, we all lived through that with the delays and bureaucracy. If it could've been done any quicker then people would've said at the time. The only delay I can think of that wouldn't have happened had Tony Bloom been in charge earlier is the year delay once planning permisson been granted.

If you remember we were supposed to be in Falmer this season and I guess if we didn't need to go to the banks for money we wouldn't have been in that chicken and egg situation of needing permission before asking the banks. The building process could've begun straight away. That really is nit picking though, it's very easy to be wise after the event.

 

[El Presidente]

Back to the original question, do TB and DK dislike each other...I haven't a clue.

 

[Billy the Fish]

It's rubbish though isn't it? When has revenue generation ever used as a meaningful indication of 'richness'?

Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Er...B&H Council gave us planning permission in 2002 - exactly the same year as Liverpool council gave planning permission to Liverpool



Richest Clubs In The World Top 20 List | FootyBlog.net

Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man U are the top three and they all have debt too

Newcastle richer than Man City?

 

[Gwylan]

It's rubbish though isn't it? When has revenue generation ever used as a meaningful indication of 'richness'?

Forbes doesn't use revenue as indication but uses value, whatever that means
Liverpool's even higher using this method

Soccer Team Valuations - Forbes.com

OK, so are you saying that the delays for Liverpool since 2002 have not been entirely down to funding?

No, they're down to funding but I'm trying to say that the whole business is a lot more complex than Arthur makes out. A club has to get planning permission (not always easy), fight objections (as we know, can be exceedingly difficult), deal with changing political climates - a supportive council can suddenly become unsupportive - secure funding and then get it built (look how long it took to build Wembley even though there was planning permission and funding in place). We're not talking about a few months here - these things drag on for years.

To take an example closer to home, Sussex have been talking about developing the county ground since the mid-1990s and are only just getting round to doing it.

 

[Danny-Boy]

I have never met Tony Bloom but I would imagine he is an utterly ruthless business man who expects and wants his own way. Dick is an astute businessman but more a kindly Uncle. Maybe they have very different personalities. Thats my best guess anyway.

I HAVE met Tony Bloom, albeit briefly in the street outside Griffin Park.

I always believe first impressions mean a lot, and Bloom was genuinely friendly, and not "distant". Apart from the fact he was wearing a cool suit he could have been any Joe going to watch a game of football.

I have never met Knight but I would guess he is a political operator of the first rank. Look how he used Ivor Caplin to make Falmer effectively a political football.

 

[Giraffe]

The only delay I can think of that wouldn't have happened had Tony Bloom been in charge earlier is the year delay once planning permisson been granted.

Yes I think this is right, although no one's fault. At the time they were still trying to secure finance elsewhere when the banks crashed and this definitely delayed things, regardless of what the club said at the time. Had Bloom been in properly earlier I think the stadium would be in place now and open this season, but that is the only delay that I think can justifiably be drawn from the Bloom v Knight discussion, and as others have said there is some merit to the argument that a change of ownership at the wrong time could have caused a problem with the politics of gaining planning approval.

 

[El Presidente]

Arthur's argument is twofold.

Planning Process:

1: All you need is money to speed up the planning process. This might be true when dealing with dissenting leaseholders in a block of flats you want to develop, but I don't think is valid when dealing with objections on environmental reasons, such as those made by LDC. Planning permission WOULD have been a lot quicker if Prescott's office not f***ed up the original decision, giving leave to an appeal.

Funding:

2: The lending market in 2008 was completely different to that in 2002, when B&H Council gave the original green light to Falmer. He is therefore right that banks would not have provided the funds, and it is unlikely that there would have been sufficient grants to provide for Falmer either.

As for Martin Perry not coming clean, the objectors to Falmer would have had a field day, and NSC would also have slaughtered him, if he had said that there was a shortfall in terms of paying for the stadium. Why reveal your hand when you are in the midst of negotiations anyway. In no other line of business is a company obliged to give out sensitive financial information to its detractors or members of an internet message board, so why should that apply to the Albion?

Ultimately planning permission was granted, and the stadium has been built, to an even higher level of comfort than we would have originally expected, the latter thanks to TB's largesse.

 

[Simster]

No, they're down to funding but I'm trying to say that the whole business is a lot more complex than Arthur makes out.

No, you're not doing that at all. Let me remind you:

It took a DECADE for Christ's sake. I know there were obstacles and I know other clubs have had issues, but not for TEN years+!

Liverpool, which is 7th richest football club in the world, got planning permission for Stanley Park in 2002. The scheduled opening of 2014 has been postponed again.

If club as rich as Liverpool struggles to get a ground built within 12 years. I don't think that ten years is a long time for a team as cash-strapped as Brighton to get a ground particularly as it was being built in an AONB, something that no British football club has had to deal with.

So you took issue with my point which was that Liverpool have been ready to move since 2002 (and are waiting on funding) whereas it took us TEN years even to get to that point, and we'd still be f***ed if not for Bloom's dough.

We all know that getting permission is not straight forward, it's just that some of us will take issue with the idea that having to wait ten years to get to that stage somehow represents a job well done.

 

[El Presidente]

We all know that getting permission is not straight forward, it's just that some of us will take issue with the idea that having to wait ten years to get to that stage somehow represents a job well done.

What do you think the club could have done differently?

The opponents to Falmer used every trick in the book to delay the process, it was not at the club's behest or interests that it took ten years, but the opponents.........IMO that is.

 

[Arthur]

and what pray did this chum know? surely he can elaborate his knowledge now?

Well it's up him if he wants to reveal himself and/or the nuts and bolts as I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

I found out something regarding where the club were seeking funding. It puzzled me slightly so I asked said chum to ask MP as I knew said chum knew MP and had regular contact with the guy. MP's reply surprised me slightly as he confirmed what I had been told but said not to say anything as it would lead to unwanted questions.

and to labour a point, it turned out everything was hunky dory, in fact better than we had thought as there is no banks to pay interest to.

That's more by luck than judgment though!

Perhaps that is what HE was told, by those who WERE responsible for securing the funds?

Maybe? Although if my staff don't deliver what I've promised to my seniors it's going to be me who gets it in the neck! Likewise it was Perry who continually told us not to worry about the funding so it's on his head in my eyes.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

...........Bloom wanted to be in charge for years but Knight wouldn't sell........................

Wouldn't sell what?
Buying DK's personal shareholding (which he still has) wouldn't have given TB a majority even with Ray Bloom's shares added.

 

[Gwylan]

So you took issue with my point which was that Liverpool have been ready to move since 2002 (and are waiting on funding) whereas it took us TEN years even to get to that point, and we'd still be f***ed if not for Bloom's dough.

We all know that getting permission is not straight forward, it's just that some of us will take issue with the idea that having to wait ten years to get to that stage somehow represents a job well done.

But you're not comparing like with like. Liverpool and the Albion both secured planning permission in 2002. Albion then were hit by a series of objections and eventually got got the go-ahead in 2007 (later than it should have been but that was thanks to Prescott's cock-up). Liverpool didn't have those objections.

My point is that no money in the world would have helped us overcome those objections. As I said,TB could then have taken over from DK and got us ahead of 2011 but that's the only real delay I can see.

 

[Simster]

What do you think the club could have done differently?

The opponents to Falmer used every trick in the book to delay the process, it was not at the club's behest or interests that it took ten years, but the opponents.........IMO that is.

I really don't know, I'm no expert. But if I was paying a project manager with experience in the field, I'd expect him to know.

To be honest Keiran, I'm finding myself playing devils advocate a bit. I just feel I don't want to be hoodwinked into believing the board did a fantastic job getting the stadium built when the fact is it took ten years to jump through the hoops AND we'd still not have a stadium without Mr Bloom anyhow.

 

[Danny-Boy]

What do you think the club could have done differently?

The opponents to Falmer used every trick in the book to delay the process, it was not at the club's behest or interests that it took ten years, but the opponents.........IMO that is.

For a start, the club tried to build at Waterhall. That got knocked back by Brighton Council.

Then the attention shifted to Falmer. The original plan was for a stadium that straddled the two planning areas, Brighton and Lewes District. When it was clear LDC would not give permission for a stadium within the planning control, it was slid westwards - at considerable expense with earthworks etc. and involving demolition of part of Brighton Uni - so that only the parking area came on the LDC planning zone.

Also at that time the area was in an AONB, whether rightly or wrongly. Councils usually in a tourist area, where AONB's matter - and remember the National Park was on the agenda back then as well - will refuse planning permission for a large structure on an AONB.

So LDC weren't looking at it from a political perspective though Brighton certainly was, IMHO.