[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Blues Guitarist]

I'm pretty convinced, yes. I've looked at the arguments on both sides, and noticed that there is a difference in the quality of them. The arguments against seem to boil down primarily to two things. A letter in the 14th century saying it was a fake and the radiocarbon dating test of 1988. That's about it, and they are what I would call easily dismissable. Why do I deem them dismissable? Well, let's take the letter. It claims that the caught the forger and he told them how he "painted" it. However, this alleged forger is not named, there is nothing mentioned in the letter about how the forger is supposed to have "painted" it, and the image is not painted on anyway. There is no paint, ink or dye in the image. The image itself is caused by oxidation and dehydration of the cellulose in the absolute very top layers of the micro-fibres of the cloth. Not painted, and impossible for anyone to do, even today. Everything about it is impossible really. No one can replicate it. Not with all the properties it has. Wikipedia is silly, too, because it says things like "the repair patch theory has been debunked." I think, "Oh really? Sounds interesting. I haven't heard anything about the repair patch theory having been debunked." So I click on the link of the alleged debunking, and it leads nowhere. Really strange.

On the other hand, the evidence in support of the authenticity of the shroud is not easily dismissable. In fact, as I've already mentioned, it is so good that scientists working on the shroud have converted and become Christians on the basis of what they have seen. Of course, the media only talks about the radiocarbon dating test of 1988, and doesn't mention the fact the even the director of the project himself (Ray Rogers) came to agree with those who pointed out that it was in fact a medieval repair patch.

There are many things about it that are extraordinary. For example, as I said, no one knows how the image was put on the shroud. It is not scorched on, because the image does not fluoresce. It is not painted on. One of the hypotheses is that it would have had to have been caused by a sudden burst of a colossal amount of light energy lasting only the most infinitesimally small amount of time. I can't remember the exact figures, but it's a ridiculously huge amount of energy and a ridiculously short duration of time. Pretty difficult for a medieval forger to arrange. What could have caused this to happen?

I've already mentioned the VP-8 image analyzer. Peter Schumacher, the inventor, is one of the scientists who converted and became a follower of Jesus of Nazareth when he saw the results of the scan. It has 3D information encoded into the image.

There is no image under the areas where there is blood. So the blood got there first, and the image was created later. That in itself is interesting, but also it makes the job of the forger harder. It would be easier to do the image first, and then add the blood after. It's much harder to get the image to match the blood.

The fact that the actual image on the cloth is a photographic negative is also astounding. How and more to the point why on earth would a medieval forger do it like that, centuries before the invention of photography? What would be the point?

It has x-ray and holographic properties, too. There is pollen endemic to the Jerusalem area on it. The blood stains match those on the Sudarium of Oviedo, too which is also interesting. Police photo IDs and face recognition technology require 40 points of coincidence to establish someone's identity. The Shroud and the Sudarium have over 100. Now, the provenance of the Sudarium is well known. It travelling west along the coast of North Africa as Islam expanded in the 7th century, ending up in Spain. So if the Shroud and the Sudarium are of the same person, which over 100 points of coincidence would strongly suggest, the Shroud must date back to at least then.

Why don’t you apply the same level of critical analysis to the bible that you apply to the forger’s letter?

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

The teaching of Jesus is impeccable. Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. And he didn't just preach it, he walked the talk. On the cross he prayed for his murderers: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He is the embodiment of God's love.

Yet none of those believed in Jesus so what happened to them after God's love? You have said time and again everyone apart from following Jesus are going to hell. If that's true God's love is no more than a drunken person's.

 

[kuzushi]

Why don’t you apply the same level of critical analysis to the bible that you apply to the forger’s letter?

Have you read my answer to @Commander ?

There is no religion like Christianity. No other religion that was prophesied about coming for thousands of years before it arrived.
I've posted this already, and some people apparently don't like too many Bible quotations, but who do you think it's talking about?

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 ‘He trusts in the Lord,’ they say,
‘let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.’
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honour him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfil my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him –
may your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him –
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Or this, who is this talking about I wonder
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied;[e]
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



Both passages talk about someone who is pierced. One says his hands and feet are pierced. The other says he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was on him. It talks about someone who dies for the sins of the people, but then will see the light of life. These passages were written centuries before Jesus. They are Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah.

No other religion stakes its validity on a historical event, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. If you want to know whether or not Christianity is true, look at the resurrection. This is the one thing you have to believe to be saved. And funnily enough, it's the one thing for which there is a considerable amount to go on to be able to ascertain whether or not it's true. How convenient. We are not required to believe something that is very difficult to establish, such as the parting of the Red Sea. Someone said in this thread that Jesus was one of many religious leaders who were executed. How many of the others have you heard of? If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we would never have heard of him, either. The Jewish leaders got the Romans to execute him because they wanted him dead because they knew that that would kill off the movement, his followers would scatter and go into hiding, and that would be the end of it. Except it wasn't. When the disciples emerged annoyingly proclaiming Jesus's resurrection, in the very city where he had walked and talked and been crucified, there wasn't much the Jewish leaders could say. They couldn't point to the body and say, "Look, here's his body! He's not alive," because the body had gone. Muhammad's body is still lying in a tomb in Medina, and is a pilgrimage site for Muslims. Jesus's body disappeared within a couple of days of his execution. Pilgrims who go there go to visit an empty tomb.

Again, unlike any other religious leader I can think of, Jesus had a herald come before and one after, sandwiched between two bookends. John the Baptist and the apostle Paul. Only God can arrange this. The story of Paul itself testifies to the resurrection. Committing himself to weeding out believers in Jesus and having them arrested.

"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples."​

Saul was Paul's name before he converted. Why did he convert? Because of what happened as he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians and have them brought back to Jerusalem. Jesus appeared before him, and he was rendered blind and had to go to find a man named Ananias to have his sight restored.

The teaching of Jesus is impeccable. Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. And he didn't just preach it, he walked the talk. On the cross he prayed for his murderers: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He is the embodiment of God's love.

 

[kuzushi]

Yet none of those believed in Jesus so what happened to them after God's love? You have said time and again everyone apart from following Jesus are going to hell. If that's true God's love is no more than a drunken person's.

I'm not here to justify God. I'm just telling you how it is because that's the best thing I can do. If you want to reject what I'm saying based on what you have stated here, that's your prerogative. I believe that God is trying to warn people. When Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane, just before he got arrested, he prayed intensely to his Father, sweating blood (which apparently is a thing, hematohidrosis, that when it happens usually happens to those awaiting execution https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810702/ ) that if there were some other way he could be spared the ordeal that was about to befall him, and the reply that came back was that there was no other way. God required this in order to save us. If you reject it, there is nothing else. There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

 

[Triggaaar]

The test you're referring to is the radio-carbon dating one from 1988.
It's worth reading a bit more about it. The wiki section provides a good summary.

The carbon dating shows that it's from the 13th century.

More recent tests with new methods have dated it to around the time of Jesus.

Most? So over half of them. I look forward to seeing these.

From wiki: "The most recent analysis (2020) concluded that the stated date range needs to be adjusted by up to 88 years in order to properly meet the requirement of 95% confidence". So still 13th century.

Good point

X-ray Dating of a Turin Shroud’s Linen Sample

On a sample of the Turin Shroud (TS), we applied a new method for dating ancient linen threads by inspecting their structural degradation by means of Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS). The X-ray dating method was applied to a sample of the TS consisting of a thread taken in proximity of the...

www.mdpi.com

Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering is experimental. Carbon dating is the most reliable method of dating objects, and concludes that the shroud was made in the 13th century. Some religious people don't like the result, so they have tried another method to come up with a different result.

Your link also says that a condition of the conclusion is that the shroud was was kept between 20.0 and 22.5 °C, with a relative humidity of 75–55% for 2,000 years. WTF?

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I'm not here to justify God. I'm just telling you how it is because that's the best thing I can do. If you want to reject what I'm saying based on what you have stated here, that's your prerogative. I believe that God is trying to warn people. When Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane, just before he got arrested, he prayed intensely to his Father, sweating blood (which apparently is a thing, hematohidrosis, that when it happens usually happens to those awaiting execution https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810702/ ) that if there were some other way he could be spared the ordeal that was about to befall him, and the reply that came back was that there was no other way. God required this in order to save us. If you reject it, there is nothing else. There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Again you haven’t answered my question if he was the embodiment of God’s love, why did he pray for forgiveness of the Romans knowing it was futile?
God’s love is very questionable in your quote.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'm pretty convinced, yes. I've looked at the arguments on both sides

Is this thread you've shown that you're not actually able to look at evidence from both sides. You have decided that god is real and if you accepted that actually, he's not, that would probably have quite an impact on your life. You do not want that to happen, so you will not open your mind to relaity.

The arguments against seem to boil down primarily to two things. A letter in the 14th century saying it was a fake and the radiocarbon dating test of 1988. That's about it, and they are what I would call easily dismissable. Why do I deem them dismissable? Well, let's take the letter.

Can you talk about what's wrong with the carbon dating - the most proven method of dating objects? If you think they tested a bit that had been repaired, they should be given a bit that wasn't repaired. Also, if they were given a bit from the very edge, in order not to damage the important areas, why on earth would that bit have been repaired in the first place?

As for it being forged: the easiest way to forge it would be to wrap a dead body in the material, and let the body react with the material naturally. Then, when you study the material, you can conclude that yes, the marks were made by wrapping a dead body in the material.

 

[Guinness Boy]

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Run by a Jew. There's nothing wrong with being a Jew. Jesus himself was a Jew.
It's the word the Bible uses to refer to Jesus and his people. I don't understand the faux outrage.
3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

To qoute you again.
"Very good website run by a Jew who worked on the STURP as the official photographer and found faith through the experience, although he's not a Christian."
The way it is written is to me wrong, almost as if a Jew could not do that, out of curtesy I would expect someone to write something along the lines of a Jewish person. Also the fact at the end of the sentence it is reiterated that they are not a christian, it is just wrong as though you are casting them as subhuman, why does it matter what faith a person is.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

View attachment 162386

Yes but God made the moon of cheese, as we all know so all's good.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Are you Jewish?
If you are and you feel there's something wrong with the word Jew, and it offends you, then fair enough.

No, I am not.
You read what you want to, and skip what you deem irrelevant, which is fair enough, but if you had read through the thread and my replies to you, you would know my connection with religion and what faith I was brought up with.
I am named after Martin Luther, which should give you a clue to my heritage and religion my family are linked too.

 

[Triggaaar]

The Jewish leaders got the Romans to execute him because they wanted him dead because they knew that that would kill off the movement, his followers would scatter and go into hiding, and that would be the end of it. Except it wasn't. When the disciples emerged annoyingly proclaiming Jesus's resurrection, in the very city where he had walked and talked and been crucified, there wasn't much the Jewish leaders could say.

Well if it was true, they would have celebrated and followed their messiah. Their bible had prophesied the coming of their messiah - if Jesus the Jew had died, and then been resurrected, that would have been proof that he was their messiah. To say they would have been overjoyed is an understatement. They would have celebrated and worshiped him. But they didn't, did they. They didn't believe he had been resurrected at all.

 

[Triggaaar]

image

Yes, but we should be respectful and stick to the facts.

 

[kuzushi]

Is this thread you've shown that you're not actually able to look at evidence from both sides. You have decided that god is real and if you accepted that actually, he's not, that would probably have quite an impact on your life. You do not want that to happen, so you will not open your mind to relaity.

I think this applies more to you than it does to me. Perhaps you don't want to face up to the fact that if you accept the fact that Jesus was indeed who he claimed to be, your life will have to change, so you will not open your mind to reality.

My first priority is to get to the truth. Then, based upon that, I will orientate my life accordingly. I would be OK with that. Having looked at everything, it is clear that Jesus did exist, and that he had disciples, and that he was crucified, and that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead on the third day. Sceptics and believers alike accept these things. That leaves us with 2 options. Either he did indeed rise from the dead, or the disciples experienced a group hallucination, which would be like having a group dream.

Can you talk about what's wrong with the carbon dating - the most proven method of dating objects? If you think they tested a bit that had been repaired, they should be given a bit that wasn't repaired. Also, if they were given a bit from the very edge, in order not to damage the important areas, why on earth would that bit have been repaired in the first place?

I think the dating was probably correct for the piece of cloth that they had, but that it was from a repaired section of the cloth. It is known that the cloth was repaired by French nuns after a fire:

During its history, the Shroud of Turin has been subjected to repairs and restoration, such as after the fire which damaged it in 1532. Since 1578 the Shroud has been kept in the Royal Chapel of Turin Cathedral (from 1694 to 1993 the Shroud rested in the Royal Chapel's Bertola altar).


In 1453 Margaret de Charny deeded the Shroud to the House of Savoy. In 1532, the shroud suffered damage from a fire in the church in Chambery, France where it was stored.[8] A drop of molten silver from the reliquary produced a symmetrically placed mark through the layers of the folded cloth. Poor Clare Nuns attempted to repair this damage with patches. Repairs were made to the shroud in 1694 by Sebastian Valfrè to improve the repairs of the Poor Clare nuns.[9] Further repairs were made in 1868 by Clotilde of Savoy.[10]

As for it being forged: the easiest way to forge it would be to wrap a dead body in the material, and let the body react with the material naturally. Then, when you study the material, you can conclude that yes, the marks were made by wrapping a dead body in the material.

If it was made in that way, the image would be distorted. The blood got on the cloth that way, but not the image.

Italian scientists find image on back of Turin shroud

Scientists have found a ghostly image on the back of the shroud of Turin, exposing the faint imprint of the face and hands of the figure on the front of the cloth.

www.theguardian.com

 

[kuzushi]

To qoute you again.
"Very good website run by a Jew who worked on the STURP as the official photographer and found faith through the experience, although he's not a Christian."
The way it is written is to me wrong, almost as if a Jew could not do that, out of curtesy I would expect someone to write something along the lines of a Jewish person. Also the fact at the end of the sentence it is reiterated that they are not a christian, it is just wrong as though you are casting them as subhuman, why does it matter what faith a person is.

The reason I specify that he is not a Christian is because there are Jews who are Christians. He could be a Jew who also accepts Jesus as the Messiah. St Paul was both a Jew and a Christian. They are not mutually exclusive. His is a strange position which I don't quite understand, to believe that the shroud is genuine but for that not to lead you to follow Jesus doesn't really make sense to me. There is no disrespect on my part towards Jewish people whatsoever. In fact, I respect them, and Jesus was a Jew, and so is Tony Bloom, so how could I not. I was impressed with the way they responded to the rocket attacks a couple of years ago (Edit: the Israelis, not Jesus and Tony Bloom). There were thousands of rockets being fired into their territory, and instead of retaliating, they set up this defence system called Iron Dome, whereby they fired shed-loads of little missiles up to intercept the incoming rockets. It was amazing, and involved going to great lengths to defend their people while not inflicting harm on those living near the sites where the rockets were emanating from, which would have been a lot cheaper and easier to do, but would have resulted in massive casualties and deaths.

 

[kuzushi]

The reason I specify that he is not a Christian is because there are Jews who are Christians. He could be a Jew who also accepts Jesus as the Messiah. St Paul was both a Jew and a Christian. They are not mutually exclusive. His is a strange position which I don't quite understand, to believe that the shroud is genuine but for that not to lead you to follow Jesus doesn't really make sense to me. There is no disrespect on my part towards Jewish people whatsoever. In fact, I respect them, and Jesus was a Jew, and so is Tony Bloom, so how could I not. I was impressed with the way they responded to the rocket attacks a couple of years ago. There were thousands of rockets being fired into their territory, and instead of retaliating, they set up this defence system called Iron Dome, whereby they fired shed-loads of little missiles up to intercept the incoming rockets. It was amazing, and involved going to great lengths to defend their people while not inflicting harm on those living near the sites where the rockets were emanating from, which would have been a lot cheaper and easier to do, but would have resulted in massive casualties and deaths.

Here he is being interviewed. It's quite interesting. He mentions the Carbon-14 dating at about half an hour in, and talks about antisemitism in the Church, among other things. He also refers to himself as a Jew and his people as Jews in the video, so he as a Jew evidently doesn't have a problem with the word.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think this applies more to you than it does to me. Perhaps you don't want to face up to the fact that if you accept the fact that Jesus was indeed who he claimed to be, your life will have to change, so you will not open your mind to reality.

I understand that after my death, that's it for me, there is no more. If I could find any evidence that Jesus was really the son of god, that would be amazing - I could get to go to heaven, my family (those that haven't already gone to hell through no fault of their own) could go to heaven and we could be together - that would be amazing - where do I sign? I'd love that to be true. I'd be more than happy to change my path, I couldn't change fast enough.

But I can't find any evidence that stands up to a modicum of scrutiny.

My first priority is to get to the truth. Then, based upon that, I will orientate my life accordingly. I would be OK with that.

Ok. You may have already said what denomination you are, but I missed it. You're not JW are you? The JW cult is particularly unfair, meaning that when people realise that their faith is false, they can't leave, because if they do, they are ostracised and can't see their own family any more.

Having looked at everything, it is clear that Jesus did exist, and that he had disciples, and that he was crucified, and that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead on the third day.

I can go with your first points. It is not, however, clear that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. Jesus prophesied that he would and his disciples believed him, although they may not have known whether it would be in physical form or more spiritually, and when he hadn't risen, it wouldn't be surprising if they moved him to a secret location in order to push the new religion that they believed in. The disciples had a lot to gain from lying. They have been immortalised, we are still talking about them now. Their actions meant they could claim to be important people, the disciples of the son of god. If they had left Jesus dead in his tomb and the new religion had died, that would have been the end of everything they believed in and stood for and worked for.

Sceptics and believers alike accept these things.

No they don't. Sceptics, as I've shown above, do not imagine that the disciples believed Jesus had been resurrected.

If Jesus did rise from the dead, why didn't he go and see the jewish leaders and say hi? What was the point in rising from the dead if he wasn't going to show himself to everyone?

That leaves us with 2 options. Either he did indeed rise from the dead, or the disciples experienced a group hallucination, which would be like having a group dream.

No. They lied.

I think the dating was probably correct for the piece of cloth that they had, but that it was from a repaired section of the cloth. It is known that the cloth was repaired by French nuns after a fire:

Why would they add a piece of cloth to an insignificant the edge of the material? And it's also a weird coincidence that the repair work was done at exactly the time that evidence predicted would have been when the whole thing was faked. And even if you are correct - why don't they just carbon date a bit of the cloth that's original, thus proving the date.

During its history, the Shroud of Turin has been subjected to repairs and restoration, such as after the fire which damaged it in 1532.

The cloth was damaged in a fire - but doesn't the WAXS method of dating require that the cloth was kept between 20 and 22 degrees C? That's tricky if it was in a fire. And not that the carbon dating shows that the piece was a lot older than the repairs done after 1532.

If it was made in that way, the image would be distorted. The blood got on the cloth that way, but not the image.

But you think it was made by being wrapped around Jesus's dead body don't you? Or do you think it was more miracluous than that?

 

[Triggaaar]

The reason I specify that he is not a Christian is because there are Jews who are Christians.

You can't be a Jew and a Christian. Of course anyone can claim to be both, but then they're just very confused. You might as well say you're an atheist Buddhist Jewish Muslim.

Jews believe that god is one entity, whereas Christians beilieve in the holy trinity. Christians believe that Jesus was the messiah, a human, and that he was also devine, but Jews believe humans cannot be devine, and that the messiah has not yet come.

 

[Jackthelad]

You can't be a Jew and a Christian. Of course anyone can claim to be both, but then they're just very confused. You might as well say you're an atheist Buddhist Jewish Muslim.

Jews believe that god is one entity, whereas Christians beilieve in the holy trinity. Christians believe that Jesus was the messiah, a human, and that he was also devine, but Jews believe humans cannot be devine, and that the messiah has not yet

You can't be a Jew and a Christian. Of course anyone can claim to be both, but then they're just very confused. You might as well say you're an atheist Buddhist Jewish Muslim.

Jews believe that god is one entity, whereas Christians beilieve in the holy trinity. Christians believe that Jesus was the messiah, a human, and that he was also devine, but Jews believe humans cannot be devine, and that the messiah has not yet come.

Most of the early Christians were Jewish. Jesus/Yeshua (Hebrew name) was Jewish. The Torah is part of The Bible. Christianity is Jewish. Also there are lots of Jewish Christians.

 

[Triggaaar]

Most of the early Christians were Jewish. Jesus/Yeshua (Hebrew name) was Jewish. The Torah is part of The Bible. Christianity is Jewish. Also there are lots of Jewish Christians

Jesus was Jewsih and claimed to be the messiah. Jews rejected his claim, and so Christianity branched off from Judaism. Christians now have to recognise that Jesus was the son of god, and Jews cannot recognise that, so you can't be both.

Sure, a Christian can claim that Christianity is just a continuation of Judaism, but Jews do not accept that. Christianity is what we call the faith that split from Judaism and it's just semantics to pretend that they're the same.