Census 2011 - Religion

[DTES]

When it comes to things I could donate to that comes last eveytime, how bloody pointless.

Nobody here is expecting - or even suggesting - you should make a donation. I think (though I admit it's a guess) that it was posted here more as part of the plea for people to tick "No Religion" rather than get people to donate.

Putting "Jedi", or "Football" may seem funny, but as this says, can backfire...

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Says on the front you can get fined ? surely can't do this

Have ripped mine up and put in the bin. Will just deny ever getting it unless they start sending recorded

How can they enforce that?

Mine wasn't even addressed to me personally, it just said To The Occupier.

2011 Census help - Your legal responsibilities

Your legal responsibilities

You must be included on a 2011 Census questionnaire.

The legal requirement to complete a census return, for England and Wales, is set out in Section 8 (1) of the Census Act 1920 and in the Census (England and Wales) Order 2009, Census (England) Regulations 2010 and Census (Wales) Regulations 2010.



What happens if you refuse to complete a 2011 Census questionnaire?

Everyone living or staying in the UK on census night must be included on a census questionnaire. Refusing to do so may result in prosecution.

Householders are legally responsible for completing a census questionnaire and for including all appropriate household members and visitors.

What happens if you don’t complete a questionnaire:

1. If a questionnaire is not returned, reminders will be sent out to households, and census staff will visit and offer to help householders complete their questionnaire

2. If the householder continues to refuse, information will be forwarded to the census office. A letter will be sent, along with a replacement questionnaire, to enable householders to complete the questionnaire

3. If the householder continues to refuse, census officers will make a final visit. They will offer to help the householder complete the questionnaire

4. If the householder continues to refuse, the case will be referred to solicitors. Prosecutions will take place in magistrates’ courts. Successful prosecutions will result in a fine of up to £1,000 and a criminal record

Information from household members

It is illegal for a member of the household to refuse to provide the householder with the information necessary for completing the household questionnaire.

If a member of the household wants to keep their information private, they can request and complete an individual questionnaire. But they must still provide some basic information – such as their first name and last name – to include on the household questionnaire.

 

[bhaexpress]

Nobody here is expecting - or even suggesting - you should make a donation. I think (though I admit it's a guess) that it was posted here more as part of the plea for people to tick "No Religion" rather than get people to donate.

Putting "Jedi", or "Football" may seem funny, but as this says, can backfire...

My point was basically what's the sense in getting worked up about a census ? Do people really need to be told what to put ? Putting down Jedi just shows that somebody think's they're clever or funny when in fact they are neither. 'No religion' should be enough. Maybe if it said 'which religion do you practice' it might make more sense. Plenty of people will say Christian when in fact they haven't been in a church for years other than for Baptism, Marriage or Funeral it's true but frankly so what ?

 

[DTES]

Maybe if it said 'which religion do you practice' it might make more sense.

Agreed - this was the first "part" of this campaign, but it failed and the Gov't insisted on this wording.

Plenty of people will say Christian when in fact they haven't been in a church for years other than for Baptism, Marriage or Funeral it's true but frankly so what?

From the link:

After the 2001 Census, the figures collected were used to justify the following policies:

-Increase in the number of faith schools
-The continuation of collective worship in schools
-The public funding and support of ‘interfaith’ and faith-based organisations above the support offered to secular organisations
-Suggestions of an increase in the role of faith in Britain under the coalition government
-The appointments of government advisors on faith
-Contracting out public services to religious organisations
-Keeping the 26 Bishops in the House of Lords as of right
-Continued high number of hours dedicated to religious broadcasting
-Specific consultation at government and local level with ‘faith communities’ over and above other groups within society
-Continued privileges for religious groups in equality law and other legislation

...all of which the campaign organisers (and I) are opposed to...

 

[Dandyman]

Agreed - this was the first "part" of this campaign, but it failed and the Gov't insisted on this wording.



From the link:



...all of which the campaign organisers (and I) are opposed to...

...is the right answer.

 

[DTES]

...is the right answer.

The bishops one is my "favourite". There are only two 'democracies' in the entire world that reserve seats in their parliaments for religious leaders: Iran and.... the United Kingdom. It's shameful.

 

[KZNSeagull]

This useful Twop Twip was posted earlier today which raised a smile:

"DARTH VADER. Spot members of the Rebel Alliance by putting a question on religious affiliation in your next Imperial census."

 

[Albion Rob]

Agreed - this was the first "part" of this campaign, but it failed and the Gov't insisted on this wording.



From the link:



...all of which the campaign organisers (and I) are opposed to...

From that list, can I just ask what the beef is with faith schools? Surely if parents want their kids to go there (and presumably the kids don't mind too much) then it's up to them?

My understanding is that they perform very well too and are generally oversubscribed (I assume with parents from religious families - or maybe not)?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Could someone supporting the campaign please explain the difference between someone non-religious being encouraged to tick Christian for cultural reasons, and someone who doesn't currently practice being encouraged to say that they aren't religious at all?

 

[sten_super]

Could someone supporting the campaign please explain the difference between someone non-religious being encouraged to tick Christian for cultural reasons, and someone who doesn't currently practice being encouraged to say that they aren't religious at all?

Isn't the point of the campaign to encourage those that aren't religious to admit to as much? I don't think it's aimed at 'believers' that don't go to Church so much as people that don't believe but put themselves down as Christians for the sake of convenience/societal expectations/whatever other reason they may have. The aim of the census should not be to artificially inflate or deflate the numbers ascribed to any classification (whether talking about religion, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) but to gain an accurate representation of society.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Isn't the point of the campaign to encourage those that aren't religious to admit to as much? I don't think it's aimed at 'believers' that don't go to Church so much as people that don't believe but put themselves down as Christians for the sake of convenience/societal expectations/whatever other reason they may have. The aim of the census should not be to artificially inflate or deflate the numbers ascribed to any classification (whether talking about religion, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) but to gain an accurate representation of society.

Seems from their website that they are basically advocating that if you are do not consider yourself "part" of a religion, then you should tick "no religion". That to me as as big a misrepresentation as someone who is culturally but not spiritually Christian ticking so. I agree with them that one question with a few boxes is stupidly simple however.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

Jedi ! and proud of it.

 

[Dandyman]

Seems from their website that they are basically advocating that if you are do not consider yourself "part" of a religion, then you should tick "no religion". That to me as as big a misrepresentation as someone who is culturally but not spiritually Christian ticking so. I agree with them that one question with a few boxes is stupidly simple however.

To be honest I'd prefer questions along the lines of a) what religion (if any) were you born into/raised as ? b) what religion (if any) do you now consider yourself to practice?

 

[DTES]

From that list, can I just ask what the beef is with faith schools? Surely if parents want their kids to go there (and presumably the kids don't mind too much) then it's up to them?

My understanding is that they perform very well too and are generally oversubscribed (I assume with parents from religious families - or maybe not)?

Several reasons really. A couple to start...

1. Integration/multiculturalism. The Government bangs on about how different cultures/religions need to integrate more and not live segregated lives, and then allows - even encourages - children of different faiths to be separated until the age of eighteen.

If you want inter-faith relations to prosper, surely it makes sense to encourage integration/friendships/etc. from day one, rather than take deliberate steps to avoid it?

2. Parent's rights v Children's rights. A child heading of to school at day 1 clearly isn't able to make a reasoned decision as to what religion they believe in/want to belong to. IMHO, the parent's "right" to choose their religion comes far behind the child's right to an education that would allow them to decide themselves when they are able. You say "the kids don't mind too much" - at that age they wouldn't know any better.

You would never describe a child as belonging to a political belief (e.g. "That five year-old is a Labour/Tory/Marxist/capitalist child"), so what logical reason is there to do describe one as a "Christian/Muslim child"?

NB - I'm not advocating bringing up all children as atheists and telling them all religions are false - but giving them an education where they learn each religion equally in RE lessons - and only about science in science lessons. A recent doc. on C4 showed creationism being taught as a valid scientific theory in faith schools, which is nothing short of disgraceful.

 

[DTES]

Seems from their website that they are basically advocating that if you are do not consider yourself "part" of a religion, then you should tick "no religion". That to me as as big a misrepresentation as someone who is culturally but not spiritually Christian ticking so. I agree with them that one question with a few boxes is stupidly simple however.

It shouldn't be about being "part" of a religion - it should be entirely independent of culture. If you believe in a god then tick the relevant box; if you don't believe in any gods then tick "no religion".

Being part of a "culture" should not be used to justify (among other examples - see above) reserving places in our Houses of Parliament for religious leaders, who will then in turn influence our laws based upon the beliefs in one particular holy book...

 

[beorhthelm]

Maybe if it said 'which religion do you practice' it might make more sense. Plenty of people will say Christian when in fact they haven't been in a church for years other than for Baptism, Marriage or Funeral it's true but frankly so what ?

if people are ticking "christian" as default when the only act of christianity is going to someone elses wedding/christening/funeral and having a yuletide feast on the 26th Dec, we end up with a mis-representation of the religious makeup of the population. though we are officially secular, we do also give alot of wieght to religion, which might be unfounded. why assume the default is to have a religious belief?

From that list, can I just ask what the beef is with faith schools? Surely if parents want their kids to go there (and presumably the kids don't mind too much) then it's up to them?

i think the beef is that they manage to get two bites of the cherry, private funding from the church involved as well as state funding. with selection by religion considered, they are in effect state funded private schools. if you had say a football focused school, a music school, a capitalist school, you wouldn't get the state funding (or allowed to stray far from the prescribed teaching guidlines). why are religious schools given this advantage? Yes, they are usually very good, its a pity other special interest groups cant do the same.

Seems from their website that they are basically advocating that if you are do not consider yourself "part" of a religion, then you should tick "no religion". That to me as as big a misrepresentation as someone who is culturally but not spiritually Christian ticking so. I agree with them that one question with a few boxes is stupidly simple however.

the question is about religion, if you dont practice one, not say you do. that is the mis-representation, millions saying they believe in something they don't.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

To be honest I'd prefer questions along the lines of a) what religion (if any) were you born into/raised as ? b) what religion (if any) do you now consider yourself to practice?

Good start - although I think there needs to be a middle ground between the 2 as well - not sure how it could be phrased without being a leading question but something that gives people the chance to align themselves to a religious belief (however broadly) even if they don't practice. I think your option could lead to a lot of scewed statistics suggesting people had given up a religion - when many, without practicing, haven't truly abandoned their faith.

 

[sten_super]

Seems from their website that they are basically advocating that if you are do not consider yourself "part" of a religion, then you should tick "no religion". That to me as as big a misrepresentation as someone who is culturally but not spiritually Christian ticking so. I agree with them that one question with a few boxes is stupidly simple however.

Having now read through the website I agree that their definition seems rather too narrow, based upon 'practice' (presumably whether you go to church or not, in the case of Christians). It's undoubtedly a complex issue, but the results from the previous census do suggest that the question in its current form gives (or at least gave in 2001) a misleading picture of faith in this country. I think perhaps what they should be targeting is those who say they belong to a given religion simply because that is the religion they were bought up in, irrespective of their beliefs, rather than trying to make a complicated distinction between practising and non-practising believers.

I would imagine that the current nature of the question leads to all religions being over-represented, not just Christianity. I have a friend who is of Pakistani origin, who drinks and smokes and attends a mosque about 3 times a year (for no other reason than family pressure). I'd imagine that on the census (if he answers the question) he will put himself down as Muslim, when he is as Muslim as I am Christian (i.e. not at all).

 

[ATFC Seagull]

the question is about religion, if you dont practice one, not say you do. that is the mis-representation, millions saying they believe in something they don't.

Well, in my opinion:

1. You can have a religion without practising one - so they are asking people to do the same (albeit vice-versa) of what they claim to be fighting against. That whole website is basically humanists proselytising - trying to encourage people who may have a fleeting religious observance to declare that they have none - which is ticking their box. Its no less cynical than if followers of Islam or Catholics telling people that if they have ever been to a mosque or church then they must tick their box. There is an FAQ section addressing pretty much any person caught in between and telling them why they should tick "no religion".

2. The question does not say "what religion do you PRACTICE?". So you are wrongly jumping to conclusions about its intent. The campaign seems to assume that should people ally themselves as Christian, this would wrongly be used to justify provisions such as faith schools, parliamentary procedures etc. I would be interested to see a statistic of people who tick this box, and whether this isn't what they want (hence them loosely considering themselves Christian). I work in a faith school, and whilst a lot of the parents are not practising Christians in any way - they are comfortable with the identity and want their children to be brought up in this way. The BHA asserts that this is wrongly based on the census, I don't think they can prove that.

 

[DTES]

Well, in my opinion:

1. You can have a religion without practising one - so they are asking people to do the same (albeit vice-versa) of what they claim to be fighting against. That whole website is basically humanists proselytising - trying to encourage people who may have a fleeting religious observance to declare that they have none - which is ticking their box. Its no less cynical than if followers of Islam or Catholics telling people that if they have ever been to a mosque or church then they must tick their box. There is an FAQ section addressing pretty much any person caught in between and telling them why they should tick "no religion".

2. The question does not say "what religion do you PRACTICE?". So you are wrongly jumping to conclusions about its intent. The campaign seems to assume that should people ally themselves as Christian, this would wrongly be used to justify provisions such as faith schools, parliamentary procedures etc. I would be interested to see a statistic of people who tick this box, and whether this isn't what they want (hence them loosely considering themselves Christian). I work in a faith school, and whilst a lot of the parents are not practising Christians in any way - they are comfortable with the identity and want their children to be brought up in this way. The BHA asserts that this is wrongly based on the census, I don't think they can prove that.

Not meaning you personally ATFCS, but there seems to be a confusion between "practice" and "belief". I agree that if someone believes in a god (be it the the Christian one or any other) then they should tick the box of that religion whether or not they practice.

The point of the campaign (and my own personal opinion) is that if you don't even believe that a particular god exists, then you shouldn't tick Christian/Muslim/Sikh/whatever just because you were brought up in that culture.