Carragher scared of playing for England

[Simster]

Do behave! A point was proven after the WC etc - Not a lot has changed I'd agree and not enough talent is coming through - to overhaul things will take decades. But to not want your national team playing at a major tourno...!?

Three points:

1) A point hasn't been very well proven if nothing has changed. It's water off a ducks back these days, and not just to the players but to the management and our ever inert FA.
2) The Euros don't really mean much to me. I have always been very much "meh" about them. I really would rather we used the time to rebuild in time for the next WC, and if we have success in the Euros then that's just a nice by product. Unfortunately, this time round, we haven't really rebuilt in the full sense of the word. The players have changed slightly, but the same tiresome attitudes from all stakeholders are still in place.
3) Please don't flounce off as if you've been bullied this time just because we disagree.

 

[Simster]

But where is the overhaul coming from?

Has there been an FA-wide inquiry as to what's wrong with the national team, ascertain where the problems lie, involve everyone in discussions, and formulate a strategy to be put in place covering the national game from top to bottom in a manner which will assist the England side?

Or has Capello just been told to get on with it - and in so doing, tinkers with the side here and there?


Oh, hang on, Howard Wilkinson did that a few years ago, and the FA ignored it. The German FA, realising their shortcomings at the time, picked up on it and acted upon it, mind - and look where their national side is.

Sorry, I wouldn't have replied if I had seen this. Spot the f*** on. Howard Wilkinson nailed this decades ago.

 

[Sheebo]

Three points:

1) A point hasn't been very well proven if nothing has changed. It's water off a ducks back these days, and not just to the players but to the management and our ever inert FA.
2) The Euros don't really mean much to me. I have always been very much "meh" about them. I really would rather we used the time to rebuild in time for the next WC, and if we have success in the Euros then that's just a nice by product. Unfortunately, this time round, we haven't really rebuilt in the full sense of the word. The players have changed slightly, but the same tiresome attitudes from all stakeholders are still in place.
3) Please don't flounce off as if you've been bullied this time just because we disagree.

1) Agreed - Nothing seems to have been done about it. I agree re some players etc... But don't group all the players together...

2) Euros mean a lot to me - Euro 96 ensured this, but i don't think we'll do very well if we qualify.

3) Do behave

 

[The Large One]

I agree that things are pretty tits up with it - but there are so many different reasons including players attitudes right down to problems at grassroots level i'm sure.

So then you ask... WHY do players have an attitude problem?

Doubtless the answers are many and varied, though I suspect one aspect which covers a whole multitude of sins is lack of incentive.

What is their incentive to play well? They don't need the money. They don't money the glory. They don't need the hassle. They're not interested in the privilege playing for your country brings you. And this is just one tiny aspect of a whole host of issues which will need to be addressed for England to have a successful national side.

You're right when you say it will take ages to sort out - but there doesn't appear to be the will from the top of the game to put any procedures into practice. Especially when you have THREE organisations running English football - none of whose agendas join up on this particular subject.

 

[Brovion]

Honest as ever, he was describing how current England players may get uptight when playing for their country. It made sense with the the media & public very unforgiving & instantly judgemental these days. And with months between games to make good for mistakes.

The Capello hotel/camp, during a South African winter, was no jaunt by all accounts. Dull, austere & boring.

I think it's a very valid point. Our players aren't the best in the world - I think even the most blinkered fan of the 'Golden Generation' now accepts that - but they're nowhere near the worst either. I think that one of the reasons we under-perform is not because we're 'shit' or the manager's 'shit' but because there's this huge weight of expectation that we should do well because we're England; we invented the game and we won the war. It was really brought home to me when we played Andorra away in the 2008 Euro qualifiers. It was 0-0 at half-time and the crowd had been getting more and more restless. England weren't playing badly, but everyone was playing in their shells scared to make a mistake. Cappello had alluded to this when he said the England shirt was 'very heavy'. It was a good analogy.

I know the Spanish had a similar problem with national expectation. One of the things that helped them lose it was to adopt the slogan "Whatever happens .... happens. Spain forever." I don't think that would work for England as I still sense that people would still say "What do you mean the players feel 'pressure'? Bloody wusses the lot of 'em". Which rather proves the point.

 

[Simster]

You're right when you say it will take ages to sort out - but there doesn't appear to be the will from the top of the game to put any procedures into practice. Especially when you have THREE organisations running English football - none of whose agendas join up on this particular subject.

There was an absolutely cracking article on the FA and their all round incompetence and inertia in WSC this month. An FA that blathers on about FIFA corruption, yet played that particular game until they realised they had lost out and didn't put up an anti-corruption candidate when the FIFA presidential elections came up, and whilst moaning at the way FIFA runs its affairs, has presided over appalling distribution of wealth amongst its own clubs and allowed its biggest clubs to be taken over by get rich quick Russian oligarchs, fat American businessmen who fund their hobby by saddling their clubs with debts totalling multiple millions, and oil tycoons influential in Arabian countries with horrific human rights records.

Do you trust this shower of shite to put English football right? No, neither do I.

 

[Sheebo]

So then you ask... WHY do players have an attitude problem?

Doubtless the answers are many and varied, though I suspect one aspect which covers a whole multitude of sins is lack of incentive.

What is their incentive to play well? They don't need the money. They don't money the glory. They don't need the hassle. They're not interested in the privilege playing for your country brings you. And this is just one tiny aspect of a whole host of issues which will need to be addressed for England to have a successful national side.

You're right when you say it will take ages to sort out - but there doesn't appear to be the will from the top of the game to put any procedures into practice. Especially when you have THREE organisations running English football - none of whose agendas join up on this particular subject.

Well yes what your saying is sadly true for some - pulling on those 3 lions is all the motivation they should need. Sorry but if that was me in their shoes I'd feel exactly the same - money wouldn't change me (i know ur prob thinking it's easy to sit here and say this but i honestly know it wouldn't). Look at the 1990 team - app Butcher used to get so pumped up playing for his country he's be punching walls. It's the pathetic 'Champions League' modern day footballer attitude some have which is ridiculous and causes this. Give me 11 David Beckham's any day.

 

[Simster]

Well yes what your saying is sadly true for some - pulling on those 3 lions is all the motivation they should need. Sorry but if that was me in their shoes I'd feel exactly the same - money wouldn't change me (i know ur prob thinking it's easy to sit here and say this but i honestly know it wouldn't). Look at the 1990 team - app Butcher used to get so pumped up playing for his country he's be punching walls. It's the pathetic 'Champions League' modern day footballer attitude some have which is ridiculous and causes this. Give me 11 David Beckham's any day.

The difference is that in Butcher's day, the Champions League didn't exist. Back then, winning the WC was truly the ultimate accolade in the game. Nowadays (sadly?) the Champions League is challenging that, which is why some players now specifically move for "champions league football".

 

[The Large One]

Well yes what your saying is sadly true for some - pulling on those 3 lions is all the motivation they should need. Sorry but if that was me in their shoes I'd feel exactly the same - money wouldn't change me (i know ur prob thinking it's easy to sit here and say this but i honestly know it wouldn't). Look at the 1990 team - app Butcher used to get so pumped up playing for his country he's be punching walls. It's the pathetic 'Champions League' modern day footballer attitude some have which is ridiculous and causes this. Give me 11 David Beckham's any day.

I still think that misses the main point. Yes, of course you want someone to play with pride but... if you have skill, resources, tactical awareness etc, then pride and passion are things you let loose once the battle is won.

How many times did you think Brighton played with 'pride, fire, passion, bulldog spirit...' etc last season? Or how many times did you think that skill, teamwork, intelligence, fore-thought and tactical awareness were foremost? I know what I think, and it's not something I could say about England.

Terry Butcher's wall-punching, admirable though they might been considered, are to me indication of the masking of the lack of a whole range of other issues. David Beckham's commitment, drive and leadership only papered over a malaise which had already set in. With him gone, the cracks were there for all to see. And still are.

 

[Northstandite]

I think it's a very valid point. Our players aren't the best in the world - I think even the most blinkered fan of the 'Golden Generation' now accepts that - but they're nowhere near the worst either. I think that one of the reasons we under-perform is not because we're 'shit' or the manager's 'shit' but because there's this huge weight of expectation that we should do well because we're England; we invented the game and we won the war. It was really brought home to me when we played Andorra away in the 2008 Euro qualifiers. It was 0-0 at half-time and the crowd had been getting more and more restless. England weren't playing badly, but everyone was playing in their shells scared to make a mistake. Cappello had alluded to this when he said the England shirt was 'very heavy'. It was a good analogy.

I know the Spanish had a similar problem with national expectation. One of the things that helped them lose it was to adopt the slogan "Whatever happens .... happens. Spain forever." I don't think that would work for England as I still sense that people would still say "What do you mean the players feel 'pressure'? Bloody wusses the lot of 'em". Which rather proves the point.

Remember that Andorra game well. It took Gerrard to get stuck and play, to get it going.

Spain as a model:
The likes of the knowledgeable Stewart Robson and others say Spain now has 40,000 fully qualified coaches, compared to a fraction of that here. That helps the kids with technique and tactics.
Add, they are taught one style of play (look at Barca & Spain) that works for them through all the age groups.
Only Real Madrid ignore this style, with their thuggery versus Barca, but Casillas, Ramos & Co do fit in around the Spain-style in the national team.

Spain had 40 years of tournament failure too, so it shows what can be done.

 

[The Spanish]

I

Terry Butcher's wall-punching, admirable though they might been considered, are to me indication of the masking of the lack of a whole range of other issues. David Beckham's commitment, drive and leadership only papered over a malaise which had already set in. With him gone, the cracks were there for all to see. And still are.

I do not think there is a relentlessly downhill trajectory from butcher in sweden spilling blood to SA 2010. for most of my football watching lifetime the main focus by the media on england was on everyone running amok in european cities. i think a lot of our expectation has materialised since it stopped going off so much. i cannot of course back this up with any more facts than nostalgia but from what i remember not half as many people expected or demanded we win spain 82 when we had a far better chance than SA2010.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

We've had this 'bored in hotels' business before. Why has it not been addressed? Did the players speak to the captain to speak to the manager?

Granted, I am no Capello, but if my team were bored, I would arrange light excursions when not training. I visited a few orphanages and played football against the residents. It gives you one of the greatest feelings in the world. Capello might be happy staring at a painting for a few hours, but that doesn't mean the team are going to want the same thing.

Perhaps we do need a middle ground between Steve 'best mate' McClaren and Fabio 'disciplinarian' Capello.

Put the fun back into playing for England? If the players enjoy it, they will soon find their pride and passion again.

 

[The Large One]

I do not think there is a relentlessly downhill trajectory from butcher in sweden spilling blood to SA 2010. for most of my football watching lifetime the main focus by the media on england was on everyone running amok in european cities. i think a lot of our expectation has materialised since it stopped going off so much. i cannot of course back this up with any more facts than nostalgia but from what i remember not half as many people expected or demanded we win spain 82 when we had a far better chance than SA2010.

England football turned a corner in Euro 96. This was on the back of our abject showing at Euro 92 and our non-appearance at USA 94. The 'kicking off', as you put it, had one last hurrah in France 98 (Euro 2000 in Belgium could and should have been handled so much better by the authorities).

To me, it's the realisation by the supporters of the extent to which England has flatlined - and every major country made advances - which has finally tempered our expectations.

Similarly, the FA has to realise that, when it nailed its colours to the pursuit of elitist excellence in the form of the Premiership in 1992, effectively abandoning the three lower divisions of its own national league, it started something which - as far as the England national side is concerned - has been one huge 20-year project failure. It needs to admit to itself that as a marketable commodity, the England National Team gravy train has gone cold - the party is over.

Time to get on with finding some real answers, rather than just idly throwing money at it.

 

[The Large One]

Put the fun back into playing for England? If the players enjoy it, they will soon find their pride and passion again.

This is my point - they don't need 'pride' and 'passion' (Jeez, I f***ing hate those words when talking about playing football).

They need skill, an understanding of tactics, an abandonment of ignorance and naivety, a willingness to play with and for their team-mates.

Pride and passion don't make a victory, they are the spoils of victory.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

This is my point - they don't need 'pride' and 'passion' (Jeez, I f***ing hate those words when talking about playing football).

They need skill, an understanding of tactics, an abandonment of ignorance and naivety, a willingness to play with and for their team-mates.

Pride and passion don't make a victory, they are the spoils of victory.

Well, of course, they need other things. But p&p is going to help the cause. How many times over the last decade have we just looked like we are going through the motions.

I didn't mention the other stuff as you had covered that.

Whilst watching the Barca vs Man Utd CL final, I did find myself muttering "Why are Man Utd giving the ball away so easily? Why don't they try and hold on to it". Kick and rush is yesterdays news.

I thought it was agreed a long time ago that we play 11-a-side on a big pitch too soon, yet nothing has changed?

I'm not really fussed anyway. I haven't liked the England team much since we lost the characters like Gazza (nothing to do with poor showings).

 

[mistahclarke]

I remember reading a footballers autobiography/interview of some sort, Jason McAteer maybe?

Anyway, he said that Jamie Carragher was the most disgusting room mate and used to spit and wipe his boogies on the walls and be an absolute mess.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

I remember reading a footballers autobiography/interview of some sort, Jason McAteer maybe?

Anyway, he said that Jamie Carragher was the most disgusting room mate and used to spit and wipe his boogies on the walls and be an absolute mess.

Didn't he also arrange to beat up a fellow footballer, but called it off as the intended target was with a friend of his?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But that's not whining is it? You have to take it in context. He's offering reasons as to why England players underperform, and that is a very valid reason.

In fact, I'm sure he wouldn't even disagree with you, and might even have said as much in that very interview, not that it will have been printed.

But why didn't the players take some books, an iPod or a puzzle with them? If I knew I was going to be holed up in a hotel for a reasonable amount of time knowing I had to be at my best I might use some personal responsibility and do something about the possibility of being bored.

 

[Simster]

But why didn't the players take some books, an iPod or a puzzle with them? If I knew I was going to be holed up in a hotel for a reasonable amount of time knowing I had to be at my best I might use some personal responsibility and do something about the possibility of being bored.

Because footballers are too thick to read books. Or maybe they didn't expect to be holed up.

 

[DT Withdean]

I remember reading a footballers autobiography/interview of some sort, Jason McAteer maybe?

Anyway, he said that Jamie Carragher was the most disgusting room mate and used to spit and wipe his boogies on the walls and be an absolute mess.

And your contribution to this intelligent debate on English football?

About as much as aggressive bores watching their young sons playing football and bellowing "get stuck into him", and the Tony Pulis-like "get in their faces" ...

NIL.

Whilst the germans, spanish, portugese march on.