Bus Fares

[BensGrandad]

Lord B you have far greater knowledge on these matters than most on here so if what you are saying about the competion of other companies like Stagecoach, Country Liner both only run 2 routes into Brighton, from their outlying routes so not really in city competition, and the Lemon bus company are virtually non existent why should The Sun chose to use Brighton as an example of non competitive bus services.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

You could buy a weekly ticket on BB for about a tenner I think. Might have been only valid on one route, but not sure. There was also a Rainbow ticket that gave unlimited travel on both providers buses for one day for about £3...

There was also a yearly ticket that allowed travel on both providers services AND train travel around the immediate area

I used to renew my monthly bus travelcard at Ship Street post office and paid by cheque. I think you're right about the weekly ticket which you bought from the BB driver rather than being issued with a pass , was it only valid on the 49's or 27's ? . I remember when we moved over to Downs Park that I had to pay more for my monthly travelcard as I had to use the 60 supershuttle to get home after an evening shift.

 

[trueblue]

If you live anywhere near the centre of town, the prices are a disgrace. For me, it's £3.60 for a return trip to Brighton station. Comparatively, it only costs £14.40 with a railcard to get to London and back on the train.

If I'm with my partner, then it's only 80p more to get a cab home. Ridiculous.

 

[Spun Cuppa]

I used to renew my monthly bus travelcard at Ship Street post office and paid by cheque. I think you're right about the weekly ticket which you bought from the BB driver rather than being issued with a pass , was it only valid on the 49's or 27's ? . I remember when we moved over to Downs Park that I had to pay more for my monthly travelcard as I had to use the 60 supershuttle to get home after an evening shift.

Yeah, my brother bought the weekly ticket from the driver for the 49 route. He also used to sit upstairs and smoke roll-ups! It was a fair time ago obviously

I bought the yearly ticket in the mid-nineties when I was a student and wrote a knocky letter when they withdrew the train element of the deal, to get a reply saying it was still good value, at the SAME price, with a third of the service removed

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Yeah, my brother bought the weekly ticket from the driver for the 49 route. He also used to sit upstairs and smoke roll-ups! It was a fair time ago obviously (

Is that why there was always a smell of wee (old grannies) on the lower deck and the smell of weed on the top deck of the 49's ?

 

[Spun Cuppa]

Is that why there was always a smell of wee (old grannies) on the lower deck and the smell of weed on the top deck of the 49's ?

Wouldn't know as never travelled on them. I did however spend many a happy hour on a 26 going up Ditchling Road to Holling-of-the-bury for too many years

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Lord B you have far greater knowledge on these matters than most on here so if what you are saying about the competion of other companies like Stagecoach, Country Liner both only run 2 routes into Brighton, from their outlying routes so not really in city competition, and the Lemon bus company are virtually non existent why should The Sun chose to use Brighton as an example of non competitive bus services.

The facts are that B&H Buses have a fleet of over 200 vehicles based in Brighton, The Big Lemon have about 5 and the other companies are out of town operators. It undoubtedly looks like a monopoly - and I wouldn't ague that it isn't. Nobody else WANTS to run in Brighton, because they haven't got the resources (or the depots) to compete seriously. And - as I've said already - the issue isn't just about competition; it's also about the potential benefits of there being an integrated network and ticketing system.

The Sun is only reporting Thursday's announcement that the Office of Fair Trading have asked the Competition Commission to investigate local bus services throughout Great Britain:-

OFT refers local bus services to Competition Commission

The OFT has today referred UK local bus services, excluding London and Northern Ireland, to the Competition Commission (CC).

This decision follows consultation on the results of an OFT market study into the industry. The study found evidence that limited competition between bus operators tends to result in higher prices and lower quality for bus users and may represent poor value for money for taxpayers.

The study identified a number of features of local bus markets that could prevent, restrict or distort competition. These relate both to commercial services and services subsidised by local transport authorities. Issues include:

•a stable and concentrated national market picture where large national operators appear to largely respect each others' territories;
•the majority of local services, in many different local areas, being operated by a small number of large bus companies;
•complaints alleging predatory behaviour of incumbent firms designed to eliminate competition from new entrants; and
•low numbers of bids for supported service contracts in many areas, with just one bidder for a quarter of tenders.

The study also found evidence that fares are higher in those areas where operators with a strong market position are not challenged by a large, well-resourced rival.

Heather Clayton, OFT Senior Director, said:

'One of the concerns that we think the Competition Commission should take a look at is the tendency for local areas to become dominated by a single operator. This is certainly not about a return to 'bus wars ' or unmanaged 'head to head ' competition on every route, but we do think large bus operators should face a healthy level of competitive constraints.

'Given the size and importance of this industry, with at least £1.2 billion coming from the public purse every year, the OFT believes that it is appropriate for the Competition Commission to investigate how, in its various forms, competition can be harnessed to deliver what passengers want and the best value for money for the tax payer.'

The OFT consulted with the industry, government, local authorities, trade bodies and others following its provisional finding that a market investigation reference should be made to the CC. The CC will now conduct a detailed public investigation and reach its own conclusions. It can compel parties to submit particular evidence, and also has the power to impose remedies which go beyond the outcomes available from an OFT market study.


[That's the OFT press release at OFT refers local bus services to Competition Commission - The Office of Fair Trading


It makes no specific mention of Brighton - that's merely journalistic spin, probably attributable to a journo who has his own ideas about places where there might be a "problem".]

EDIT:- The full OFT Referral document has just ONE reference to Brighton in the whole of its 124 pages:-

"Many towns have only a single player of any significance (for example, Aberdeen, Bristol, Brighton, Cardiff, Cambridge, York)"



My fear is that the Competition Commission won't see beyond the standard "consumer choice" issues that it likes to promote. It could easily ignore the benefits of an integrated local transport system.

 

[Cian]

getting the night bus home for FREE if you are lucky enough to live near a #25/#7 route is great value when compared to £15 in a taxi

night buses=thumbs up


(it's only free if you already have a saver, £2.20 otherwise which is still ACE)

When did it go to free with a saver? Was £1 with a saver last time I used the 7 at night. Even better now then.

Dublin has unusually low public transport fares on the whole but B&H buses are in general cheaper than Dublin - the equivalent of a Saver here is 6 euro and the night buses are a fiver! Admittedly DB have a bigger area to cover than B&H but they've also got far more customers.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

So how come they can do it in London? Some little perk in the legislation that set up the Assembly and the Mayor?

Not particularly that. It's a quirk of the 1985 Transport Act that deregulated bus services OUTSIDE London.

Even Thatcher didn't have the bottle to deregulate public transport in London. She managed to privatise it, but kept planning (and funding) of it under the control initially of her own government and, subsequently, the Mayor of London.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Even before the 1961 BATS agreement (BH&D , Brighton Corporation , Southdown) which saw 3 companies mutually working together there was an agreement implemented in 1939 between BH&D and Brighton Corporation to split revenue based on mileage and passenger usage.

Indeed. But it wasn't a completely free agreement. The arrangements (including fares, routes and timetables) were still regulated - by the Traffic Commissioners.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

I also remember the old BAT's and how you could use your weekly/monthly ticket on the trains as well. I think there were 9 staions in the area covered.

I wish they still had that as sometimes I'd save time by getting a train from brighton to 'scoomb, especially when they have roadworks in Lewes Road.

I note that during the current weather problems, saver tickets are being accepted on the trains.

 

[Emily's Mum]

I think the level of service in Brighton & Hove is really good (except after a home game) but what really annoys me is having to pay full fare for my 12 year old, simply because she doesn't live in the city. I've had to pay full fare for her ever since she was five, simply because we are outsiders. However, the train companies have now added Plus Bus to their pricing structure, which means when we come to Brighton I can pay £1.30 extra for me & £1.00 extra for Emily to have unlimited bus travel. Now that's not bad.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

I'll defend it - on the basis that the simplified pricing structure has contributed to the massive increase in bus use in Brighton (and the surrounding area).

...and what about a potential further increase if they didn't charge a Kings Ransom? My parents NEVER get the bus in. They live near Withdean Stadium and bussing would be very easy. EXCEPT, it would cost them £7.20 to get in and back and the buses are never on time. I expect there are countless of suburbian folk that have given up on the bus service and drive in. £7.20 might not seem alot, but if you are saving £3 a week or so, it adds up.

Scandalous prices.

I thought you would be AGAINST the Go Ahead movement, afterall, they are only filling the pockets of the shareholders.

Bussing in Brighton is a fecking rip off to those that pay council tax for Brighton and Hove. They are looking after those that do not. Shameful.

 

[Barry Izbak]

have to mention also that you can get a super saver which is £5 and you can go anywhere on the B&H bus network - my mum lives in eastbourne and i can get there no probs

And if you buy them online you'd be able to go and see her for only £3.

I always buy savers online and wouldn't dream of using a car in town.
All day bus travel for the same as a pint of Harvey's.
We're fortunate to have the buses we hae here.

 

[Brovion]

...and what about a potential further increase if they didn't charge a Kings Ransom? My parents NEVER get the bus in. They live near Withdean Stadium and bussing would be very easy. EXCEPT, it would cost them £7.20 to get in and back and the buses are never on time. I expect there are countless of suburbian folk that have given up on the bus service and drive in. £7.20 might not seem alot, but if you are saving £3 a week or so, it adds up.

Scandalous prices.

I thought you would be AGAINST the Go Ahead movement, afterall, they are only filling the pockets of the shareholders.

Bussing in Brighton is a fecking rip off to those that pay council tax for Brighton and Hove. They are looking after those that do not. Shameful.

Absolutely. Obviously I have the greatest respect and admiration for Lord B but I do think he's well off the mark here.

There IS an alternative though. I'll accept the high bus prices if in turn the Council and the bus lobby accept that it penalises couples and family groups. We'll make other arrangements which in the case of my family will mean either reverting back to driving into town or going elsewhere.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I'll accept the high bus prices if in turn the Council and the bus lobby accept that it penalises couples and family groups.

Bussing in Brighton is a fecking rip off to those that pay council tax for Brighton and Hove. They are looking after those that do not. Shameful.

Bus fares have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Council. They are set by the Bus Company.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

The best fare deal for Family Groups (two adults, two young people aged 5-18) living in Brighton & Hove, for a one-off return journey together is this:-

The adults each have a One-Day SuperSAVER, bought on-line at £3 each
The young people have BusID cards and travel at 20p for each single journey. BusID cards are free.

Total Cost for 4 people:- £6.80


[Up to three young people can travel with each adult at the 20p per journey fare, so a party of eight - 2 adults and 6 young people - could make the return journey for £8.40]

 

[Brovion]

Bus fares have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Council. They are set by the Bus Company.

Yes, I know. But the Council approved and built the bus lanes (and I'm sure the Go Ahead Group didn't pay for them. I could be wrong of course but I'll wager it was public money). And the Council are the ones who've deliberately tried to make driving and parking difficult in an effort to increase bus traffic. (Partly successful as they've increased bus passenger numbers AND congestion). So the Council are complicit in this with the cosy get-out that the prices are out of their control and anyway they're simply following government policy in encouraging public transport (even though it isn't 'public' in the true sense of the word).

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Yes, I know. But the Council approved and built the bus lanes (and I'm sure the Go Ahead Group didn't pay for them. I could be wrong of course but I'll wager it was public money). And the Council are the ones who've deliberately tried to make driving and parking difficult in an effort to increase bus traffic. (Partly successful as they've increased bus passenger numbers AND congestion). So the Council are complicit in this with the cosy get-out that the prices are out of their control and anyway they're simply following government policy in encouraging public transport (even though it isn't 'public' in the true sense of the word).

The alternative is, of course, total gridlock on the city's streets. Imagine what the City Centre would be like if - like everywhere else in the country - there hadn't been a 60 per cent increase in bus passengers over the last 15 years.

It's not just about "following government policy". It's about keeping Brighton a tolerable place to live in, work in or visit.

 

[Mowgli]

Suppose it depends where you live as to if you see it as good value or not, for me personally i think it's too expensive and the service on the route I live on (2/2a) is crap, hardly shows up when it's meant to, usually 5 mins+ late. Luckily I'm within short walking distance of town so don't have to catch the bus often.
The 1 year travel saver seems a rip off though, they wouldn't accept my girlfriend's uni card and were trying to charge her £430!