Lord Bracknell
On fire
London's bus fares are, of course, subsidised (and set) by the Mayor of London. Brighton's bus fares aren't subsidised by the Council.
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Bus Fares
- Thread starter BensGrandad
- Start date
Don Quixote
Well-known member
- Nov 4, 2008
- 8,362
Competition NOT good? Are you some sort of communist? It is always good, and good for the consumer which is us.
Bluejuice
Lazy as a rug on Valium
I think the pricing has got better since they introduced the Centre Fare £1.50 and Short Hop £1 fares meaning a city centre return journey, say from Palmeira Square to the Gala Bingo on Eastern Road, would cost you £3.00 there and back.
It was a little unfair when everyone was expected to fork out £3.60 to go anywhere and back, regardless of the distance.
Before the Centre Fare I'd have never got a bus back to my home in Kemptown from the station after work but now, if I'm back late, the weather's naff or I'm just feeling lazy then I don't mind shelling out £1.50, even if this is still more than Londoners pay to get far greater distances across the capital.
In fairness the service is decent, there are a lot of buses and even on Sundays or bank holidays you're never too far away from the next one turning up on whatever route you're taking. They run pretty late with some going all night and their fleet is half decent too. When you consider the money First Crapital Connect charge passengers to use their entirely not fit for purpose rust buckets on rails it does make you think the bus is better value for money, generally.
As Bracknell says, it's not actually a monopoly as there are other companies who operate here, but as B&H buses operate so many routes and so often there really is little need for other firms to try and come in and undercut them because to meet the same levels of service would really be quite an effort and in doing so you'd suddenly make catching multiple buses more difficult if the one ticket isn't valid across the city on all routes.
It's not perfect but it's not so bad. We could certainly have it a whole lot worse
It was a little unfair when everyone was expected to fork out £3.60 to go anywhere and back, regardless of the distance.
Before the Centre Fare I'd have never got a bus back to my home in Kemptown from the station after work but now, if I'm back late, the weather's naff or I'm just feeling lazy then I don't mind shelling out £1.50, even if this is still more than Londoners pay to get far greater distances across the capital.
In fairness the service is decent, there are a lot of buses and even on Sundays or bank holidays you're never too far away from the next one turning up on whatever route you're taking. They run pretty late with some going all night and their fleet is half decent too. When you consider the money First Crapital Connect charge passengers to use their entirely not fit for purpose rust buckets on rails it does make you think the bus is better value for money, generally.
As Bracknell says, it's not actually a monopoly as there are other companies who operate here, but as B&H buses operate so many routes and so often there really is little need for other firms to try and come in and undercut them because to meet the same levels of service would really be quite an effort and in doing so you'd suddenly make catching multiple buses more difficult if the one ticket isn't valid across the city on all routes.
It's not perfect but it's not so bad. We could certainly have it a whole lot worse
Lord Bracknell
On fire
If widespread competition to provide bus services developed, this would inevitably be at the expense of integration.
It is arguable that consumers are better served by having an integrated bus network (and an integrated, network-wide ticketing system) than by having a choice of provider.
The integrated London system allows different companies to compete for individual route franchises (which can drive down operating costs), but it doesn't deliver consumer choice. There are 19 different bus companies running red buses in London. They don't compete on price, they all charge the same (subsidised) fares, accept the same prepaid tickets and cards, and, between them, trouser about £1 billion in subsidies.
Bluejuice
Lazy as a rug on Valium
Incidentally I don't see competition between the train companies having had a great effect on the cost of railway tickets. In fact they're regularly going up above inflation AND most of these firms running the railway network franchises receive government subsidies.
It has also made longer journeys requiring multiple trains FAR more difficult as the chances of every train you need being on time are SLIM at best but if you miss your connection from a First Crapital Connect train to a Virgin Train, say, nobody gives a f***.
BRING BACK BRITISH RAIL
It has also made longer journeys requiring multiple trains FAR more difficult as the chances of every train you need being on time are SLIM at best but if you miss your connection from a First Crapital Connect train to a Virgin Train, say, nobody gives a f***.
BRING BACK BRITISH RAIL
SeagullTim
Boomer Sooner
It would be just a wee bit complicated to do that right now, don't you think?
Anyway, I paid £2.20 for a single fare in Norwich, which is just ridiculous.
Bluejuice
Lazy as a rug on Valium
Well it wouldn't be SIMPLE, no, and it clearly isn't going to happen seeing as we're heading for an even more right wing government later this year BUT that doesn't mean it wouldn't be in the best interests of the people
Granted Go Ahead do not have a monoploy de jure as Brighton Council can't sell the Public Transport franchise to the highest bidder, but they have a de facto monopoly. There isn't going to be any serious competition because in order to compete another company will have to make a similar investment - and at the end of the day both the new company and Go Ahead will be chasing the same market. Go Aheads's profits will be reduced and the new company might struggle to get a decent return on their investment.
So it's far easier for the bus companies to have cosy, informal cartels where Company A runs the buses in City A and Company B runs the buses in City B. That way they can both maximise their profits and get the best returns on their investments, whilst paying lip service to the flawed Thatcherite notion of 'competition'. And don't EVER forget that at the end of the day the Go Ahead Group's function isn't to run a bus service for Brighton - its function is to make a profit for its shareholders. It will do that by pricing the tickets (and running the routes) that will give it the maximum return; and it's a tragedy for Brighton that the Council and 'useful idiots' like yourself (sorry, I like you really) act as cheerleaders for what is the very worst type of capitalism.
At the very least can't the council use the revenue from on-street parking to subsidise fares like they do in London?
Partially agree. It's a great service but way too expensive. It is more for a single bus fare here than it is in London...which is one of the most expensive cities in the world. That's not right. It's also cheaper for 3 people to get a cab than it is a bus.
I also resent the fact you have to pay more for the night services if you have a saver.
As I say, great service, lousy pricing.
Uter
Well-known member
I'd like to see them introduce a group ticket for parties of 2 and over travelling together similar to Southern Rail.
Bluejuice
Lazy as a rug on Valium
I must admit that would make sense.
I get really irritated with some of the adverts on the back of buses telling you you'd be better off getting a bus than driving into town or getting a taxi as this is only true if you're travelling by yourself.
Take three of your mates in the car to a city centre car park and parking for a couple of hours will cost less between you than 4 return bus tickets would. The same is true for sharing a taxi
seagullsovergrimsby
#cpfctinpotclub
Brighton Corporation Buses was municipally owned until the business was privatised through a management buyout and changed their name to Brighton Buses , it was some time after this that B&H Buses bought the company. B&H Buses are part of the Go Ahead group and not Arriva by the way. I remember when your weekly or monthly ticketcard could only be used on the red buses and not the blue ones as there was no revenue sharing agreement.
Lord Bracknell
On fire
Revenue sharing agreements are, of course, "anti-competitive" and, therefore, illegal.
Lord Bracknell
On fire
No.
Local authority funding of bus fares generally is unlawful. The only power that a local authority has to subsidise a bus service is to fund a route which is not provided already by a bus company. The council then has to comply with regulations that require competive tenders to be invited for the subsidised route.
In Brighton and Hove, the Council subsidises some evening and Sunday routes (but not the night buses) and a few daytime odds and sods, like the route between the Knoll Estate and Portslade Station, the route that serves Ovingdean and Downs Valley Road, Woodingdean, and the buses that run between Whitehawk and the Universities, via Woodingdean and Falmer Road.
They also subsidise the door-to-door, wheelchair accessible minibus services that carry pre-booked elderly and disabled people to local supermarkets. The organisation that I manage is the company that runs those buses.
seagullsovergrimsby
#cpfctinpotclub
From a passengers point of view it was annoying as B&H buses sold weekly , monthly and annual travelcards which couldn't be used on Brighton Buses which also went in the same direction as you wanted to go because there was no integrated service. AFAIK Brighton Buses didn't have their own bus pass/multi ticket system.
Lord Bracknell
On fire
The curious thing, of course, was that prior to bus privatisation in 1986 or thereabouts, there WAS a revenue sharing agreement and integrated ticketing and network planning - but the old BATS Agreements were licensed by central government's Traffic Commissioner and were between public sector organisations (albeit a nationalised bus company and a municipal bus company). When everything went private, the regulatory authorities changed and the legal basis for clamping down on price fixing became quite different.
Spun Cuppa
Thanks Greens :(
You could buy a weekly ticket on BB for about a tenner I think. Might have been only valid on one route, but not sure. There was also a Rainbow ticket that gave unlimited travel on both providers buses for one day for about £3...
There was also a yearly ticket that allowed travel on both providers services AND train travel around the immediate area
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seagullsovergrimsby
#cpfctinpotclub
Even before the 1961 BATS agreement (BH&D , Brighton Corporation , Southdown) which saw 3 companies mutually working together there was an agreement implemented in 1939 between BH&D and Brighton Corporation to split revenue based on mileage and passenger usage.
So how come they can do it in London? Some little perk in the legislation that set up the Assembly and the Mayor?
Anyway the bottom line is unless there is a change of policy (unlikely as in thirteen years Labour have shown no inclination to reverse even the most dogmatic and ideological decisions of the Thatcher years) my wife and I are condemned to pay nearly £8 to go from Fiveways to Churchill Square and back. Bollocks to that. As I said earlier I can't believe you think that's 'reasonable'.