[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

Not capable of debate, reduced to slurs and blocking? Work away in your narrow echo chamber of opinion!

I never dismissed your youguv poll, but my info graphic was based entirely on cooper/letwin bill and April 12. You tried to create a fake argument with your wider polling data, on points or insinuations I never made as if I had. If you have a point to make it, by all means........but don't try and put words or assumptions in others mouths that they didn't make. You're arguing with yourself.

We probably owe the Mental one and numerous other EU zealots on this thread a huge debt of gratitude. I doubt their snowflakery and condescending drivel has persuaded any leaver that they should change their view but has hardened opinions and caused the more sensible remainers to wince. Amusing that all the people that block others opinions self identify as 'progressives', are pro EU and come from a left leaning perspective ....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Laughter can already be heard coming from inside the Kremlin.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1113786414133649408?s=19

This is why the farmers were up in arms about a no deal, because all the lambs would be slaughtered here.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Laughter can already be heard coming from inside the Kremlin.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1113786414133649408?s=19

This is why the farmers were up in arms about a no deal, because all the lambs would be slaughtered here.

Going to be an awful lot of milk going to waste in Northern Ireland too.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Awww I'm flattered. Does this mean you are going to finally give up the silly pretence that you aren't reading my posts?

Amusing that all the people that block others opinions self identify as 'progressives', are pro EU and come from a left leaning perspective ....

It does seem to cause you so much genuine angst that people you've never met on the internet, living in Kent and Japan, put on your ignore. Is it reopening some unresolved psychological damage from the past, such as rejection, in the form of a flashback?

I feel quite guilty now for the time I pretended to put you on ignore and the trauma it must have caused you.

 

[Baldseagull]

Couldn't care less about his location.He's as full of faeces as the dope is.

Good old 2P, always bringing the standard of debate back down when civility looks like it might break out.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As someone interested in the distribution of power in the country, I am perplexed by the references to 'the political class' and 'the pro-EU Establishment' and other such terms thrown around in the course of the Brexit debate.
So here's a challenge. assuming that the ERG is NOT part of the 'the political class' and the Establishment, can your good self or anybody tell me any demographic or social marker that disitnguishes them from non-ERG MPs who (therefore) are part of this 'class'? Is it that they didn't go to private school or enjoy the typical privileges of the others? Are they perhaps all from disadvantage regions? Or ddin't go to university?
My hypothesis would be that this group (the ERG)is if anything more privileged than non-ERG MPs. In which case the only distinguishing feature they have is that they are rabidly anti-EU. And in which case the argument appears to be a bit circular
i.e. the 'political class' is by definition those who are not rabidly anti-EU. (I'm not saying they are bad people - although there is always Mark Francois to consider - just trying to nail down this problematic concept of a discrete, identifiable and cohesive political class.*)

*PS if you simply want to amend to 'the political class excluding those members of that class with whom I agree', then it might be more accurate?

The ERG (a mish mash of oddballs) are hardly representative of the wider political class or the establishment in the UK /across Europe. Cameron, Osborne most Etonians, most Tory big business backers, the banks that gave us the 2008 crash, Goldmann Sachs etc are.

 

[Baldseagull]

Awww I'm flattered. Does this mean you are going to finally give up the silly pretence that you aren't reading my posts?

Consulting the public about our future relationship with Europe and getting a specific democratic mandate for a chosen path was long over due especially considering the changes that have occurred since we joined the EC. One of the flaws undermining the whole EU project is the political class driving forward their ever closer union agenda leaving the public behind. Continue on that course and it will all end it tears.

Are you advocating a referendum on the way forward?

 

[Guinness Boy]

The ERG (a mish mash of oddballs) are hardly representative of the wider political class or the establishment in the UK /across Europe. Cameron, Osborne most Etonians, most Tory big business backers, the banks that gave us the 2008 crash, Goldmann Sachs etc are.

Jacob Rees-Mogg was educated at Eton College. He then studied History at Trinity College, Oxford and was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He worked in the City of London for Lloyd George Management until 2007, then co-founded a hedge fund management business. He has amassed a significant fortune: his estimated net worth in 2016 was from £55 million to (including his wife's prospects) £150 million.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It does seem to cause you so much genuine angst that people you've never met on the internet, living in Kent and Japan, put on your ignore. Is it reopening some unresolved psychological damage from the past, such as rejection, in the form of a flashback?

I feel quite guilty now for the time I pretended to put you on ignore and the trauma it must have caused you.

Angst! I think you mean amusement and pity. It says far more about them/you than me.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Are you advocating a referendum on the way forward?

We already had one ... did you miss it?

 

[Giraffe]

Jacob Rees-Mogg was educated at Eton College. He then studied History at Trinity College, Oxford and was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He worked in the City of London for Lloyd George Management until 2007, then co-founded a hedge fund management business. He has amassed a significant fortune: his estimated net worth in 2016 was from £55 million to (including his wife's prospects) £150 million.

I'd love a successful man like that to lead our country.

Part of the problem we have now is that MPs are actually not very well paid and in life you get what you pay for. The cabinet are an assortment of oddballs, the shadow cabinet an assortment of total oddballs, and a lot of backbenchers are totally out of their depth, especially in the current climate.

Start paying MP's for the level of stress and responsibility they are under £200k plus and you'd see better decisions being taken. It would clearly take ten years for this to work as you'd have to get rid of the current lot first.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I'd love a successful man like that to lead our country.

Part of the problem we have now is that MPs are actually not very well paid and in life you get what you pay for. The cabinet are an assortment of oddballs, the shadow cabinet an assortment of total oddballs, and a lot of backbenchers are totally out of their depth, especially in the current climate.

Start paying MP's for the level of stress and responsibility they are under £200k plus and you'd see better decisions being taken. It would clearly take ten years for this to work as you'd have to get rid of the current lot first.

I wonder what sort of leader of a country he'd be?

 

[Baldseagull]

We already had one ... did you miss it?

I missed the one that gave us a "specific democratic mandate for a chosen path". Leave says nothing about where you are going.

 

[Bold Seagull]

We already had one ... did you miss it?

It's interesting your logic from your last few posts. I noted that you felt that the European position was a long overdue issue to put back to the people, because, as you stated things had changed since we first joined.

While the time frame is much shortened, do you not think your same logic applies, that leave means something much different from when voted in the referendum?

I actually have my doubts about a 2nd referendum, because if remain win it, all we'll do is reset ourselves to 2013 with a growing calling for us to leave again. I think we all know it won't be a big margin again either way.

HOWEVER, if leave did win it, it would absolutely put it to bed. For to win the first referendum, then win the 2nd confirmatory vote, there could be no dispute going forward, it would secure the political position for decades to come.

Really, the referendum couldn't have come at a worse time. 8 years into austerity after the financial crash, 6 years into divisive Tory rule. The General Election 2017 made enacting on the referendum promise almost impossible. If anything, the referendum should only have been called by a party with a significant majority at the time. Cameron should have set a criteria for holding a referendum, and put it on hold until that was reached, say a commons majority at at least 100 seats. The government would have then had the power to enact the will of the people.

This whole decision should have been taken at a time of strong economic growth, prosperity and governance, not taken at a time of a fragile economy, austerity and a minority government.

 

[peterward]

The ERG (a mish mash of oddballs) are hardly representative of the wider political class or the establishment in the UK /across Europe. Cameron, Osborne most Etonians, most Tory big business backers, the banks that gave us the 2008 crash, Goldmann Sachs etc are.

The people I admire most in this process are some of the ERG (the spartans), some on the Labour benches like Caroline Flint, John Cruddas and Rosie Cooper and even the SNP. The SNP have been clear from the first day they want to overturn the vote, they haven't lied or flip flopped, So to the pure brexiteers who refused under inordinate pressure to back mays pretty awful deal that offers no future protections and likewise those on the Labour benches who have stayed true to their manifesto and constituents and not been duplicitous or followed a whip thats tried to cow them into a party political line that does not honour the referendum result.

All deserve praise for standing on the courage of their principles and not saying one thing and then doing the opposite of which there are many.

 

[Baldseagull]

I'd love a successful man like that to lead our country.

Part of the problem we have now is that MPs are actually not very well paid and in life you get what you pay for. The cabinet are an assortment of oddballs, the shadow cabinet an assortment of total oddballs, and a lot of backbenchers are totally out of their depth, especially in the current climate.

Start paying MP's for the level of stress and responsibility they are under £200k plus and you'd see better decisions being taken. It would clearly take ten years for this to work as you'd have to get rid of the current lot first.

Have a think about Rees-Mogg, he does not need the MP's salary one bit, he is not there for the pay packet, so why is he there?
Does he strike you as an altruistic person, there to ensure that policy is beneficial to all? Or is he there to influence things like tax rates for high earners, rules around avoidance and get a heads up on any moves within Government to change these in a way that could hit his pocket for several Million pounds?
In my opinion, he is there for influence and information, and to use these for his benefit, and perhaps the benefit of his private clients, I am sure he does a bit for his constituents, but he makes his money with information, and he keeps it with influence.

He also, I think, enjoys playing at politics, it's an extension of the Oxford debating society for him, he enjoys the filibustering, the point scoring and the fact his words are typed up and printed on record for posterity, he is not in there to make peoples lives better, not ordinary people anyway.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'd love a successful man like that to lead our country.

Rees-Mogg is also the son of a Lord and his and his family's considerable wealth and privilege that he was born into is all inherited and built up from the subjugation and exploitation of others in the form of coal mining.

 

[Notters]

Rees-Mogg is also the son of a Lord and his and his family's considerable wealth and privilege that he was born into is all inherited and built up from the subjugation and exploitation of others in the form of coal mining.

Actually, the son of a Baron which is two ranks above a Lord is it not?

 

[pb21]

The people I admire most in this process are some of the ERG (the spartans), some on the Labour benches like Caroline Flint, John Cruddas and Rosie Cooper and even the SNP. The SNP have been clear from the first day they want to overturn the vote, they haven't lied or flip flopped, So to the pure brexiteers who refused under inordinate pressure to back mays pretty awful deal that offers no future protections and likewise those on the Labour benches who have stayed true to their manifesto and constituents and not been duplicitous or followed a whip thats tried to cow them into a party political line that does not honour the referendum result.

All deserve praise for standing on the courage of their principles and not saying one thing and then doing the opposite of which there are many.

What does the Labour, and for that matter Tory, 2017 GE manifesto say regarding Brexit and the Brexit deal?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Just 8 days until the *no deal* collapse of the country unless something changes.

Dangerous complacency has deeply set in.