[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

I am not particularly interested in populist policies, those that the tories or the left occasionally push. Simple liberalism, with a small l.

The "working class" as you put it are best served through a successful and growing economy to drive jobs and wealth with strong investment in education to enhance opportunities.

That's a nice sound bite at the end, but it lacks economic credibility.

By advocating a free labour market across the EU, those working in areas/industries which have over supply of labour will not benefit from any growth in wages, such that there is. Unless the laws of supply and demand are suspended in the EU?

On the ground in the UK many hundreds of thousands of workers are not even competing on fair terms, with transient workers operating in temporary housing with limited liabilities accessing the same market as resident workers with deeper liabilities and financial commitments.

You don't want to offer any protection to local workers in this situation, on the contrary you want more supply.

Apart from the EU I don't think any country would subject its own workers (or should I say electorate) to such treatment.

And then have the neck to tell them they are better off for it.........mental.

 

[cunning fergus]

Spot on. And a balanced mixed economy, not the heavy reliance on finance and service sectors of the U.K. Chuck in a living wage to protect those at the bottom and there you have it. A nice economy, jobs for all, no one being denied opportunity. Much preferable to the totally unimaginative roll up the draw bridge approach of some.

Chuck in a living wage to protect those at the bottom is exactly the problem, you lack the imagination to create the labour market conditions where those at the bottom would have a maximum wage.

These conditions existed in the UK once, so powerful were the workers............in fact even the maximum wage didn't work in the end.

At the rate the UK's living wage is set its an oxymoron anyway.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Good theory; doesn't match the facts.

fact is 13% of the UK population is not of the indigenous.....could be 25% by 2050 and god forbid if the Eastend can go in 75 odd years i hate to think what happens by 2116........

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Would agree with you, but we don't have the same number of manufacturing jobs as we used too. This growing economy is all about the service industry, which generally suits the type of people that are allowed to come here, it doesn't suit a young British Person who would may be like to move in to a trade such as Mechanical Engineering. Not everyone is suited to the service industry or an office job.

Manufacturing jobs have been replaced with Supermarkets, Takeaways and Coffee Shops. This is not a good economy in my opinion.

I agree with you 100 per cent that an economy over-reliant on giving each other haircuts and lattes is not a good economy. Unfortunately the economy you describe is that one that leaver after leaver on here has lauded as being the envy of Europe, ready to take on the world as we cast off the shackles. It's a short term illusion. This is a lovely lovely country and I'd pack up now if I didn't think we could recover from where we are but the reality is that our present success is too reliant on accelerating debt and borrowed money.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

fact is 13% of the UK population is not of the indigenous.....could be 25% by 2050 and god forbid if the Eastend can go in 75 odd years i hate to think what happens by 2116........

Good and true facts but not on the subject (regional Euroscepticism) we were talking about. Sad about the East End but it has largely arisen from non-EU migration, which governments have chosen not to control.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I've seem to have misplaced my polling cards for the election of the Queen, David Cameron and Jeremy Heywood; can you remind me when the public vote is/was?

That's not the question on the ballot paper though and you know it. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

This might help you!

Thank you for proving my point! Unelected and unaccountable.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Good and true facts but not on the subject (regional Euroscepticism) we were talking about. Sad about the East End but it has largely arisen from non-EU migration, which governments have chosen not to control.

Kind of agree,but if we don't exit it will still have the same result...

 

[5ways]

Actually how NATO works isn't how an EU army would work. NATO isn't an army - it's a collection of nations who have agreed to use their own armed forces in a collective protection pact. NATO does not dictate to individual members their defence policy. Each member has only one obligation which is to aid any other member who is attacked. There is also the expectation that each member spends 2% of their GDP on defence but it's not a requirement.

The idea that has been muted for an EU army is to have one that is controlled by the polices of the EU - i.e. the EU will have a defence policy. Members would be obliged to follow that policy. So if for example the EU decided to bomb Syria all members would be obliged to follow that. If NATO decides to do the same then currently it is up to individual NATO members to decide if they wish to participate in the action.

Having an army and a defence policy is indicative of statehood - something the EU is somewhat keen to become .... a state.

I don't see why it can't be on a voluntary basis like NATO. I also think that if you have a shared border you have a shared responsibility to defend it.

 

[5ways]

I agree with you BUT I've not seen anyone explain how we can compete against low wage competition from China etc - steel being a perfect example where we just can't make a product cheaper enough to compete.

You can't undercut China, or Mexico, or Indonesia etc. What you can do is create specialised jobs which cannot easily be relocated. This is what Germany does very well with it's ... HT can correct me 'mittelstrand'. You don't make it cheaper you make it better.

 

[drew]

Thank you for proving my point! Unelected and unaccountable.

The point is the presidency is a country and rotates between the various members. As for President of the Commission, he is, I believe, voted in by the European Parliament. So, you don't have a direct vote but we elect the MEPs who then elect the President of the Commission. As with Cameron, nobody actually voted for him to be PM at the General election.

 

[pastafarian]

Spot on. And a balanced mixed economy, not the heavy reliance on finance and service sectors of the U.K. Chuck in a living wage to protect those at the bottom and there you have it. A nice economy, jobs for all, no one being denied opportunity. Much preferable to the totally unimaginative roll up the draw bridge approach of some.

it really is impossible for you to picture a draw bridge down with controls at both ends isnt it.
its either rolled up and closed or down and fully open with uncontrolled access.There is no middle ground.

i wonder if this is why remain are so utterly useless on the issue of immigration,they simply dont understand the debate.
and no its not a turn of phrase,you see clueless people all over actually believing a brexit means closing the borders

it was also interesting to see on question time and in other debates over the past few days the leave camp saying we must control all our borders and the remain saying uncontrolled borders with the EU is a price worth paying. Havnt heard one person say well actually we do control our EU borders, are you, 5ways et al still sticking to the version that we do control our EU borders?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Postal voting papers arrived this morning..............3-1 to leave in our household... sadly unable to convince the youngest who has just turned 18 but it's her choice which i respect.

 

[pastafarian]

The point is the presidency is a country and rotates between the various members. As for President of the Commission, he is, I believe, voted in by the European Parliament. So, you don't have a direct vote but we elect the MEPs who then elect the President of the Commission. As with Cameron, nobody actually voted for him to be PM at the General election.

im fairly sure when people went into a voting booth they knew already and realised a vote for their Tory candidate was an endorsing vote for Cameron as PM,likewise Labour and Milliband
Mp`s and party members voted for him to lead as PM if successful in an election.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I don't see why it can't be on a voluntary basis like NATO. I also think that if you have a shared border you have a shared responsibility to defend it.

Firstly that's not what has been muted - it is an EU army that has been suggested ( and is being worked towards ). Secondly, if you go for your option of being like NATO why not, er, just continue to keep and use NATO ? Why the need to replicate it and stretch our armed forces even further ? Yes of course, so they wear that disgusting blue flag with yellow stars on their uniforms.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

The point is the presidency is a country and rotates between the various members. As for President of the Commission, he is, I believe, voted in by the European Parliament. So, you don't have a direct vote but we elect the MEPs who then elect the President of the Commission. As with Cameron, nobody actually voted for him to be PM at the General election.

Rotation is no accountability to the British people.

Of the MEPs President Juncker received 422 votes = 57% and did not receive any support from two of the three largest British parties following the 2014 election as no Conservative or UKIP backed him despite being elected under what I think you would consider to be a much fairer system than FPTP (Tory + UKIP equalled 50% of the votes cast)

What sums the EU up is that the vote for President was done in secret - we only know that Conservatives and UKIP voted against him as they said they would do so - a secret ballot for the election of a president - even more unaccountability.

Once again the question isn't about UK elections it's about the EU - as I said in a previous post two wrongs don't make a right. I'd be the first to sign up to a fairer more proportional system in the UK (such as STV or the Additonal Member System) but until we leave the EU it won't matter shown as Cameron tried hopelessly to block Junker!

 

[Hampster Gull]

That's a nice sound bite at the end, but it lacks economic credibility.

By advocating a free labour market across the EU, those working in areas/industries which have over supply of labour will not benefit from any growth in wages, such that there is. Unless the laws of supply and demand are suspended in the EU?

On the ground in the UK many hundreds of thousands of workers are not even competing on fair terms, with transient workers operating in temporary housing with limited liabilities accessing the same market as resident workers with deeper liabilities and financial commitments.

You don't want to offer any protection to local workers in this situation, on the contrary you want more supply.

Apart from the EU I don't think any country would subject its own workers (or should I say electorate) to such treatment.

And then have the neck to tell them they are better off for it.........mental.

The impacts of globalisation on the "working class" isn't due to the EU, look wider, eg China. And the impact isnt only on the UK or other European countries, look at the hinterlands of the USA. And of course this is just the latest in a long line of globasiation periods in the worlds history. Indeed we were at the leading it for many centuries and we still benefit from that now. Our great trading history and skills comes from globalisation.

The way to help out isnt to become narrow in our focus by blaming immigrants and trying to go back to a "nirvana" period where people worked down the mines. It is to look to new industries. Unless we want our kids earning what a Chinese labourer earns then we should champion education and focus on industries where we add value. As a country we are wealthier than we have ever been, lets do more, and be more inclusive to all in our society.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Postal voting papers arrived this morning..............3-1 to leave in our household... sadly unable to convince the youngest who has just turned 18 but it's her choice which i respect.

She has the longest time horizon, it is not surprising she and the majority of the yoof of today want to remain

 

[brighton fella]

If you went back 20 years and said this was Calais in 2016 most people would be shocked. This is a product of the EU's terrible border system.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/674360/Calais-Jungle-mass-brawl-stabbings-migrant-crisis-France

I wonder if the the indigenous population of Calais support immigration and recognize the various benefits that they bring to their country..
Bet they love that on their doorsteps..

 

[Soulman]

The Jackboot.

"The European Union is threatening Hungary with massive fines and court action if it does not change direction over the acceptance of the EU forced migrant relocation scheme, and a number of other areas the Commission has deemed unsatisfactory.
The latest infringement procedures — the escalating response of the European Commission against member states who fail to fall into line — deals with the treatment of Roma gypsy children in Hungary’s schools, and farming laws.


Although farming may seem like an odd flashpoint for a nation which has shot to prominence for their no-nonsense approach to the migrant crisis, the government’s reforms aimed at preventing foreigners from buying up vast swathes of farmland have been front page news in the country for months. The Commission contends by restricting ownership of farmland to the people who actually farm it, the Hungarian government is being discriminatory toward the citizens of other EU countries.


The Hungarian government on the other hand is working to keep land affordable for Hungarians by keeping out big-money foreign buyers."
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/28/eu-threatens-hungary-treatment-gypsies-migrants/