Al Qaeda's call for Spain to Iraq Islam

[The Large One]

Israel has nukes too. We'd get nuked back. Great solution!

Who by?

Which Arab nation or armed group has the capability to hit the UK from within their homeland with a missile armed with a nuclear warhead?

 

[Les Biehn]

Whatever you think of Bush and Blair, the fact remains is that they were elected democratically (for all the imperfections of that system).

Which is part of the reason they had to lie.

The Muslims are trying to kill you. Vote for me and we will get rid of the Muslims.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Utterly shit parallel. Saddam was contained and broken, not conquering the world like Hitler. And what parts of the world are Hezbollah conquering, apart from trying to get invaders off their own land?

For you justifying the deaths of innocent Iraqi and Lebanese civilians in these circumstances is morally depraved.

No innocent Israeli civilians then?

In war, people die, some of them non-combatants. It's called collateral, and it's sad, but unless you isolate two opposing armies on a huge field somewhere, you are going to get collateral damage. And some countries use collateral damage as a lever, either with the complicit agreement of the nation, or at government level.

When fighting, you have to consider the greater good. Similar to the deliberate exposure of SOE agents in WW2 to save larger cells, similar in the way that sometimes a smaller force is used to draw in the enemy as we have done in almost all wars.

We in the West, although some of you may not believe it, actually try in most circumstances to keep within the confines of the Geneva Convention. Granted, we slip outside sometimes, but we are always aware of the GC.

Other nations, although they may be signatories to the GC (in fact, that's a moot point as Saddam was a signatory to all sections of the GC including the promotion of the rights of women) do not adhere to any part of it. Even if you only believe we pay lip service to it, you only have to look at the Israeli massacre of POWs in the six-day war, Saddam's massacre of Kurds, Chechnyan/Bosnian/Serbian mass grave evidence to see that we simply don't commit war crimes on that level. If we suspended the GC, then you would really have something to complain about!

If the Armed Forces of the allies decided that they didn't want to fight anymore, or wanted to fight all their wars under an attached force of advisors, assessors and lawyers to avoid prosecution or media exposure, where do you think we would end up? Either you want people to do your dirty work for you, or you don't. In current circumstances, you need people who are willing to hold a gun, because the people you are dealing with hold you in such utter contempt that they are unable to negotiate a neutral compromise.

You are right that this is not like Hitler, it's far worse. Hitler's army had elements of fanatics - this army is made up totally of fanatics who are willing to kill themselves as well as you. They are more akin to the Japanese, and we all know how that one had to be ended.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

CNN are running a sanitised version. The version I saw in the Mirror this morning was appealing to Mulims AND non-Muslims to get stuck in:


28 July 2006
AL-QAEDA: WE WILL NOT STAND IDLY BY
THE MIDDLE EAST WAR: DAY16
By Mark Ellis
AL-QAEDA's deputy leader yesterday made a worldwide call for Muslims to fight Israel.

Ayman al-Zawahiri said in a chilling taped message that the terror network could not remain silent in the face of a "Crusader war".

The Egyptian-born surgeon added: "All the world is a battlefield open in front of us."


And he said events in Lebanon and Gaza showed the importance of the battle in Afghanistan and Iraq.



He said: "How can we remain silent while watching bombs raining on our people. Oh Muslims everywhere, I call on you to fight and become martyrs in the war against the Zionists and the Crusaders."


He added: "We can't stand by and monitor these rockets spewing their fire on the people of Lebanon and remain quiet.


"The whole world is our battlefield."

.....


He also called for all the "downtrodden" in the world -not just Muslims - to join the battle against "tyrannical Western civilisation and its leader, America."


Kamal Habib, a former member of Egypt's Islamic Jihad militant group, warned that the appeal to non-Muslims was unprecedented and was a radical change of tactics. "




That's not good news. Understandable, but not good news.

 

[crasher]

Utterly shit parallel. Saddam was contained and broken, not conquering the world like Hitler. And what parts of the world are Hezbollah conquering, apart from trying to get invaders off their own land?

For you justifying the deaths of innocent Iraqi and Lebanese civilians in these circumstances is morally depraved.

London Irish I don't know whether you are wilfully misinterpreting what I said or whether you just don't understand.

But if you'd stop being so hysterically, self-righteous for a moment you might be able to appreciate that other points of view than your own are a possibility.

I take if from your answer above that you do think that war is, sometimes, justified. And that therefore the grief of a mother whose child has been "incinerated" (for example in a German city bombed by the RAF) need not be sufficient reason to halt a war.

So you are not a universal pacifist. Fine.

I also take it you feel the war in Iraq is immoral and unjust. Again, fine.

I dont' even disagree with your response to a previous poster who said the West held the moral high ground here. But in rubbishing this idea you fell, it seems to me, into the trap of moral equivalence - concluding that the US Army and Al Qaeda are as bad as each other. This is where you and I part company.

Blair and Bush were democratically elected. Which means that to an extent they represent the "morality" of an entire nation. Their views have some measure of endorsement from the millions of us who voted for them. Therefore to sit back and accuse them of cynical immorality is to simplify the problem, I would say. The nation as a whole is complicit in this. But it also means that their morality, is subject to criticism and they can be removed from office if the country doesn't like it.

In general terms, if WWII was justified then wars CAN be legitimate and justified (even though you personally don't think this one was, I'm guessing you accept this possibility).

Al Qaeda is utterly different. They represent the morality of no one but themselves, they do not seek a mandate nor do they have one. They ONLY kill innocent civilians.

On Saddam. To use your own emotive rhetoric for a moment, do you think the fact that Saddam was "contained and broken" would have comforted a mother whose child had been "incinerated" by him.

I am extremely angry that you accuse me of being "morally depraved" and of justifying the wars in Iraq and Lebanon. I did not - as you'll see if you re-read what I wrote.

What irritates me is the lazy, template left-liberal thinking which accuses me of moral depravity because I don't entirely agree with you.

I hope next time you'll think twice before throwing gratuitous insults at someone.

 

[¤DãŃn¥ §êãGüLL¤]

Ah shaddap.

 

[crasher]

Ah shaddap.

Why?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I have to laugh when people push all what's happening in the world onto Geroge Bush, it's a totally mindless assertion that has only a small relevance in the whole muslim vs the west history.

Hell Richard I did more to damage west/middle east relations than George Bush has.

These Muslim twats are an archaic bunch with many still bemoaning the bloody crusades ffs and take any opportunity they can to eek some form of revenge on the west.

What this fuckwit is saying is bullshit, Spain was ruled by the visigoths christian hispania in around 710 Ad.

So straight off it's not a Muslim territory.
Even when they were there the nation also still housed the Basques and the Celts of Spain.

This nonce then says they ruled there til 1600's, pigs arse, they were booted out of majority power in the 1200's and during their times they used to expel Jews from Spain

The Irish have more birth right to Spain than the Moor Muslims do.

But here's an idea, if this Muslim says Spain is rightfully there's maybe the west should go take back Istanbul and give it back its original title of Constantinople and return it to it's rightful owners.

 

[Curious Orange]

We should teach the Israelis and Hezbollah to play cricket, then they can sort it out like gentlemen.

 

[The Large One]

This nonce then says they ruled there til 1600's, pigs arse, they were booted out of majority power in the 1200's and during their times they used to expel Jews from Spain

Not saying you're wrong, but the Christians gave the Jews a much harder time in Andalucia once they conquered the various city states from the Moors. As you say, the vast majority of the Moors were conquered by the 13th Century, although one last city state did last until 1492 - the City of Granada.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Not saying you're wrong, but the Christians gave the Jews a much harder time in Andalucia once they conquered the various city states from the Moors. As you say, the vast majority of the Moors were conquered by the 13th Century, although one last city state did last until 1492 - the City of Granada.

This is correct but that was only around 300 thousand of a total pop. of around 8 million people if my memory serves me right.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

This is correct but that was only around 300 thousand of a total pop. of around 8 million people if my memory serves me right.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter. The whole point of the rhetoric is that they are instilling a deep sense of injustice in their followers. You could sit all night proving that Mrs Jones from next door has more right to rule Iran than the current incumbent, all the followers are interested in is having a belief and a target for the Jihad. Truth is not important - consider, even now, that some armies on the African continent fight in the belief that water will protect them from bullets. They believe that their leaders are a direct conduit from God/Allah/Bart Simpson, and that is all that matters. They believe that they will get their allocation of virgins - why would they doubt their leader when he tells them that Spain should be theirs?

This is only the first stage - the next step is to point out how their brothers and sisters are treated under the rule of the infidel and how they should be "rescued" and returned to the fold. All the time we look for the rational explanation and the truth, we are wasting our breath - they want the world to be their way, no exceptions.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

To be honest, it doesn't really matter. The whole point of the rhetoric is that they are instilling a deep sense of injustice in their followers.

Hard to argue with images of terrified little kids being flattened by the Israeli war machine. That IS an injustice.

At the same time, maybe the cowards of Hizbollah should stop lobbing rockets over the border at equally terrified little kids aye? That's an injustice also.

But I reckon an impartial observer from another planet would conclude that it's open season on Muslim nations at the moment.

 

[London Irish]

It is both those things - but you're wrong about getting rid of Bush/Blair - Al Qaeda and their religious mutiny are the ones mentally arming their people against the rest of the non muslim world...Bush and Blair will be replaced by more politicians who will continue on attempting to rid the world of terrorists...infact if Blair were replaced now - whomever steps in would probably call all troops back home (under public request) and where would that leave us? With Al Qaeda blooming like a fungal spore...

Al Qaeda didn't exist in Iraq before our bungling invasion - now the place is riddled with them. If that's not blooming like a fungal spore, what is? And I don't know if you heard, but them and the Taliban are also making a comeback in Afghanistan now our attention has wandered a bit from the last war but one........

There is only one way to damp down the slide to Islamic extremism - sort out the festering sore of the entire Palestinian race having to live and die in shitty transit camps, put the mad Isreali miltary back in their box and promote secular democracy throughout the Middle East with diplomacy and trade - not by blowing them up with bombs

 

[London Irish]

But in rubbishing this idea you fell, it seems to me, into the trap of moral equivalence - concluding that the US Army and Al Qaeda are as bad as each other. This is where you and I part company

You are dead right that I don't assign moral equivalence to the US and Al Qaeda - the US army slaughter and help to oppress far more people worldwide and are hence are far more a danger to humanity. They are the Goliath of malignant global injustice to the pygmies of Al Qaeda.

It is the US who as sole superpower who hold chief responsibility for virtually all the major f***-ups on the planet right now, supporting a vast array of tyrants in every part of the globe, creating chaos in the Middle East with bungled invasions and support for the dreadful excesses of Isreal against their neighbours, vetoing any meaningful attempt to stop the environmental destruction of the planet - their crimes are endless.

Al Qaeda a few years ago were nothing more than a fringe criminal Saudi Arabian group with a few contacts in other countries here and there - they could have been easily crushed by a combination of security measures with Arab moderates and sorting out the festering political problems of the Middle East that extremism thrives on.

But oh no. Several mass US-sponsored slaughters in the Middle East later and Al Qaeda now become heroes and martyrs to loads of Muslim incensed by the huge bodycounts we've built up across the Arab world. Great f***ing work! And we learn NOTHING and just keep feeding Muslim extremism like a maniac chucking kerosene on a house fire.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You are dead right that I don't assign moral equivalence to the US and Al Qaeda - the US army slaughter and help to oppress far more people worldwide and are hence are far more a danger to humanity. They are the Goliath of malignant global injustice to the pygmies of Al Qaeda.

It is the US who as sole superpower who hold chief responsibility for virtually all the major f***-ups on the planet right now, supporting a vast array of tyrants in every part of the globe, creating chaos in the Middle East with bungled invasions and support for the dreadful excesses of Isreal against their neighbours, vetoing any meaningful attempt to stop the environmental destruction of the planet - their crimes are endless.

Al Qaeda a few years ago were nothing more than a fringe criminal Saudi Arabian group with a few contacts in other countries here and there - they could have been easily crushed by a combination of security measures with Arab moderates and sorting out the festering political problems of the Middle East that extremism thrives on.

But oh no. Several mass US-sponsored slaughters in the Middle East later and Al Qaeda now become heroes and martyrs to loads of Muslim incensed by the huge bodycounts we've built up across the Arab world. Great f***ing work! And we learn NOTHING and just keep feeding Muslim extremism like a maniac chucking kerosene on a house fire.

You seem to forget all this muslim crap isn't just arabs.

And you seem to be basing all the worlds islamic problems on american policies.

But the reality is this isn't just about america, this is far more wide spread than that.

Take for instance.

The Bali bombings, non-arab islamic terorism.

The Dannish cartoon riots.

The French Riots and Hijab issues.

The India/Pakistan conflicts.

Conflicts in Africa, Asia.

The murder of Van Gogh in Holland.

The terror cell in Canada.

The list goes on and on with accounts of Islam dictating to us what we can and can't do in our own nations and threatening us when we challenge them.

It's time the west realised this is everyones problem and not just some reaction to something America has created.

Where ever this religion goes its ultimate goal is to create an Islamic state, and whenever a nation motions this can never be so it seems these days they resort to violence when they can't have their way.

 

[gts big bruv]

You seem to forget all this muslim crap isn't just arabs.

And you seem to be basing all the worlds islamic problems on american policies.

But the reality is this isn't just about america, this is far more wide spread than that.

Take for instance.

The Bali bombings, non-arab islamic terorism.

The Dannish cartoon riots.

The French Riots and Hijab issues.

The India/Pakistan conflicts.

Conflicts in Africa, Asia.

The murder of Van Gogh in Holland.

The terror cell in Canada.

The list goes on and on with accounts of Islam dictating to us what we can and can't do in our own nations and threatening us when we challenge them.

It's time the west realised this is everyones problem and not just some reaction to something America has created.

Where ever this religion goes its ultimate goal is to create an Islamic state, and whenever a nation motions this can never be so it seems these days they resort to violence when they can't have their way.

Good points

 

[looney]

If the US hadn't armed and supported most of these groups, then arguably they wouldn't be as strong as they are today!

dumping money and a few arms on Afghanistan in the 80's does not account for global terrorism. They wepeon of choice for this lot is the Kalashnikov. They are funded by Syria, iran, various Saudi's etc depending what groups your looking at.

So much for spain pulling its troops out of Iraq, some people never learn.

LI probably thinks the arabs are entitled to spain the way he tends to look at things.

 

[looney]

Al Qaeda didn't exist in Iraq before our bungling invasion - now the place is riddled with them. If that's not blooming like a fungal spore, what is? And I don't know if you heard, but them and the Taliban are also making a comeback in Afghanistan now our attention has wandered a bit from the last war but one........

There is only one way to damp down the slide to Islamic extremism - sort out the festering sore of the entire Palestinian race having to live and die in shitty transit camps, put the mad Isreali miltary back in their box and promote secular democracy throughout the Middle East with diplomacy and trade - not by blowing them up with bombs

Not true, in todays telegraph the paras reckon theyve wiped out about 70% of the taliban but concede there is the issue of re-inforcements.

Still as the yanks say, better to fight them over there than over here.

Your second statement is a false premise that it is all focused on the palastian issue. This is clearly not the case. It is one of many greivances they have.

 

[looney]

Millions did vote for him, but not enough to get him into the White House. That's why he cheated. That muppet should not be in power.

He didn't cheat. The democrats attempted to cheat.

1 jew has been killed and 4 wounded in a gun attack in Seattle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5226390.stm