9/11 : Ten Years?!

[thejackal]

You really are f***ed in the mind aren't you.

Add something meaningful to the debate or f*** off, you idiot.

 

[colinz]

You really are f***ed in the mind aren't you.

I thought that brief time line of events was eloquently put together by thejackal.
The way that more & more people are waking up to the 9/11 fraud, there must now be millions of people that are 'f***ed in the mind'.
The sort of feeling you get when you realise you've been conned.

Originally Posted by thejackal
OK, but you accept that US government regularly kills citizens of other countries? The list here is far too long to go into, but we can start with Iraq and Afghanistan. Hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

And you accept that they regularly send their own citizens, albeit as members of the military, over to die in foreign countries, for political ends? 50,000+ in Vietnam, for a war which was pointless, preventable and in the end only benefitted the US military suppliers.

Does it surprise you to learn that Dick Cheney ran a secret CIA death squad, the JSOC, which was tasked, among other things, with targeting US citizens abroad? Does it surprise you to learn that Cheney and his cronies, all deeply involved in the military supply trade (the military/industrial complex, Halliburton, KBR etc.), earned literally hundreds of millions of dollars from the last 2 wars?

This article on the highly respected Salon.com:

Salon - Presidential assassinations of U.S. citizens

Even Obama has got in on the 'extra-judicial killing of US citzens' act:

Confirmed: Obama authorizes assassination of U.S. citizen

Now, you may say that there's a clear distinction between 'normal' US citizens and members of Al Qaeda, but the fact that there is no judicial overview - that these people may be targeted in their homes, away from battle, with no due process of law - means that in reality they can do it to whoever they want, and they have.

So how is it such a huge leap of faith to accept that the US government has targeted its own citizens for political gain. Well, it just isn't, because they have. It doesn't make for comfortable reading but I'm afraid to say that it's the truth, and I have that direct from friends in the secret service.

Not only that, read about the 1993 WTC bombing. A former Egyptian secret agent stands up in a US court and accuses the FBI of ensuring that the bombing went ahead, whilst the agent attempted to stop it from happening. All true and in the public domain.

If you want proof of these killings then I suggest you look into the life of Mike Ruppert. He can tell you a thing or three about the US govt killing its own citizens just to shut them up. I'll dig out some links.

 

[brunswick]

the truth behind the bbc documentary regarding the 9/11 inside job.

http://911truthnews.com/911-conspiracy-roadtrip-a-participants-perspective/



muslims in a cave? now thats a conspiracy theory.

 

[Napper]

You nutjobs trying to ply this bullshit about a conspiracy want to f*** right off.
You ARE mentalists, and your axe to grind is pointless and disrespectful.
I am certainly no fan of the Bush regime, but cockamamie stories about them arranging to bring down the TTT's and Pentagon? Lay off the drugs you idiots.

Not this at all . Bloody good thread with a lot of sensible discussion . Reading everything on here I say no way conspiracy but very thought provoking . Need to see more about why they collapsed like that to be fully sure

 

[colinz]

the truth behind the bbc documentary regarding the 9/11 inside job.

http://911truthnews.com/911-conspiracy-roadtrip-a-participants-perspective/



muslims in a cave? now thats a conspiracy theory.

What else would you expect from a TV network, that are in it up to their eye balls.
Reporting the collapse of building 7 nearly half an hour before it happened.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I saw the second half of that BBC programme last night - and the participants appeared to be bigots. Except the chap who took time to listen and was prepared to have his views challenged.

"A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs."

 

[beorhthelm]

im reminded from the diatribe on modern US history above, is all the "secrets" which are apparently known. what gets me most about the "truthers" is they talk of this great conspiracy by all these parties, who have all these secret connections and power. why do they a) not do a better job in the first place to keep things covert and b) silence the dissenters. the tinterwebs have given such thoerists a platform to broadcast on which easily be cut off by those that have the all this power and an inclination to kill thousands of their own countrymen. the VP apperently ran a covert assiniation unit, the president authorised an attack on the nation, yet Dylan Avery ( amongst many others) walks freely espousing his views. thats the elephant in the room.

here's a conspiracy for you all: the conpiracy theories are produced to generate traffic to youtube. follow the money, who gains the most...

 

[Fur Cough]

Add something meaningful to the debate or f*** off, you idiot.

Ooh, you're scary.

 

[thejackal]

Ooh, you're scary.

Yeah, good point well made.

Still got nothing meaningful to add, I see.

 

[Fur Cough]

Yeah, good point well made.

Still got nothing meaningful to add, I see.

I fail to see why people always look to blame the U.S government.

At what point do you think George Bush Jnr decided to kill 3,000 people by bringing down the Twin Towers, and bombing the Pentagon and enrolled the aid of thosands of people to carry this out and still no-one has broken their silence.

The targets were very carefuly selected, WTC the symbol of economic power, Pentagon symbol of Military Power and flight 93 was almost surely headed for the Whitehouse, symbol of political power.

If this was an Inside job then someone f***ed up badly because it weakened the U.S's image around the world as they were found woefully lacking in their ability to defend their own shores.

The only thing about 9/11 that doesn't seem right to me is flight 93, i have a feeling it was brought down by Fighters and the story of "Lets Roll" was pedalled to make All American heroes.

 

[thejackal]

I fail to see why people always look to blame the U.S government.

At what point do you think George Bush Jnr decided to kill 3,000 people by bringing down the Twin Towers, and bombing the Pentagon and enrolled the aid of thosands of people to carry this out and still no-one has broken their silence.

The targets were very carefuly selected, WTC the symbol of economic power, Pentagon symbol of Military Power and flight 93 was almost surely headed for the Whitehouse, symbol of political power.

If this was an Inside job then someone f***ed up badly because it weakened the U.S's image around the world as they were found woefully lacking in their ability to defend their own shores.

The only thing about 9/11 that doesn't seem right to me is flight 93, i have a feeling it was brought down by Fighters and the story of "Lets Roll" was pedalled to make All American heroes.

Nice one.

It's fairly common knowledge that Cheney was the one pulling the strings in the Bush II White House. I don't think 'Shrubya' had much to do with orchestrating anything at all in his presidency, although it's also pretty clear that he knows more than he's letting on. It's illuminating to discover that he flatly refused to face his own 9/11 commission unless he was accompanied by Cheney, and all strictly off-the-record too. What exactly did he or Cheney think Bush would let slip?

I think you're right about the effect that 9/11 had on the US' image abroad, it made them look utterly incompetent, although the subsequent wars and changes to national laws have made a select bunch of Americans extremely rich, and this group includes Cheney and many others closely connected to Dubya and his regime. Also, the US economy benefitted enormously from the increased military spending.

I also agree with your point about flight 93. Too many parts of that story seem completely bogus to me; a hero story, made-for-tv. Not surprising, really, since the US military have been using hollywood for their propaganda for decades.

I think the thing is, when you know, or feel very strongly, that some of the official story is a lie then how much of the rest of the story can you reasonably believe?

To take the rest of it at face value, knowing this, is to properly mug oneself off, in my opinion.

 

[Fur Cough]

Nice one.

It's fairly common knowledge that Cheney was the one pulling the strings in the Bush II White House. I don't think 'Shrubya' had much to do with orchestrating anything at all in his presidency, although it's also pretty clear that he knows more than he's letting on. It's illuminating to discover that he flatly refused to face his own 9/11 commission unless he was accompanied by Cheney, and all strictly off-the-record too. What exactly did he or Cheney think Bush would let slip?

I think you're right about the effect that 9/11 had on the US' image abroad, it made them look utterly incompetent, although the subsequent wars and changes to national laws have made a select bunch of Americans extremely rich, and this group includes Cheney and many others closely connected to Dubya and his regime. Also, the US economy benefitted enormously from the increased military spending.

I also agree with your point about flight 93. Too many parts of that story seem completely bogus to me; a hero story, made-for-tv. Not surprising, really, since the US military have been using hollywood for their propaganda for decades.

I think the thing is, when you know, or feel very strongly, that some of the official story is a lie then how much of the rest of the story can you reasonably believe?

To take the rest of it at face value, knowing this, is to properly mug oneself off, in my opinion.

The points you make are obviously thought out well, I in no way believe you are just trying to get a reaction but, I think you are wrong.

There is something inside me, and the majority of the population of the western world, that just cannot believe any government would knowingly take innocent lives in order to achieve their own personal gains.

The mere suggestion is abhorent.

I will not change your views, this is obvious, you will neither change mine.

Sorry for the f***ed in the mind comment, it was late and i was pissed.

 

[Sergei's Celebration]

I do not believe any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories. They are just theories and the counter arguments are facts. The problem with conspiracy theories is that when someone counters with facts the believers ignore it, say its a cover up, blame the Govt etc...and still carry on believing their theories, you just can not convince them. It is easier for them to believe a conspiracy than admit they were wrong and that what they have beliefs based on something that is unfounded, this upsets and angers them, they will say we have been hood winked and are ignorant. Then the cycle starts again. facts are proved, they ignore, etc, etc...

 

[drew]

Is this a load of garbage or what. They pick one camera angle and ignore all the other angles from other locations. They criticize the eye witness merely by panning a camera around but they don't actually go to Chelsea and identify the view she had! Then, if I'm not mistaken, they say how two networks had the same fade to black when I think they had already said that CNN were using the fox footage!

 

[thejackal]

The points you make are obviously thought out well, I in no way believe you are just trying to get a reaction but, I think you are wrong.

There is something inside me, and the majority of the population of the western world, that just cannot believe any government would knowingly take innocent lives in order to achieve their own personal gains.

The mere suggestion is abhorent.

I will not change your views, this is obvious, you will neither change mine.

Sorry for the f***ed in the mind comment, it was late and i was pissed.

Likewise, all fair points. And I'm sorry for being rude too.

And you're right, the last thing I am trying to do is get a reaction. I'm trying to promote consensus: i.e. what, if anything, can we actually agree on?

The thing I honestly believe is this: it's this feeling that it could never happen - that it is indeed so totally shocking and repugnant to believe that, as you put it, any government could kill their own citizens for political gain - that helps to keep the official line going.

The thing is, we can all accept that many, many governments have killed, collectively, millions and millions of their own citizens: Stalin, Hitler, Egypt, Bahrain, Syria, Libya, etc. - millions and millions of dead citizens - this is not in dispute, and is also happening now, so what we're really arguing is whether OUR governments would ever do it; Western Europe, America etc., yet our governments exist in the same world as theirs. Our secret services exist in the same shady space as theirs. Uncomfortable though it is, it's just not completely beyond the realms of possibility.

Now, I'm still not arguing that the US necessarily orchestrated 9/11, but from what I have read it's entirely possible that certain rogue elements in the upper echelons of the US govt did everything possible to allow it to happen, in order to exploit it for their own gain, which they subsequently did.

As intimated above, I come in peace!

 

[drew]

Some of the 'evidence' produced here is unbelievably dumb, such as the clip posted by Colinz. As someone else mentioned, there would have to be an awful lot of people involved in the conspiracy for it to be an inside job. What the 'truthers' or whatever dumb name they wish to be called, can't accept is that this was a terrorist event. What seems to be covered up is how much the CIA or FBI may have known about and whether it was considered a credible plot or just one of many that they probably investigate. The fact that the intelligence agencies failed to prevent this event probably explains more than anything the subsequent cover up as they were all trying to protect their backs. Jackal is quite clearly anti-american and I suspect if GW handed him a white sheet of paper, he would be adamant that it was in fact black but but had been altered to deceive everyone.

From my point of view, whilst I readily admit that I haven't read all the reports into the incident, I am 100% certain it was a terrorist attack. Whether building 7 came down by fire or if it was rigged to come down because of the sensitive info it contained as a CIA office I don't know. Maybe the CIA rig all their buildings so that they can prevent documents getting into the wrong hands in the event of some sort of catastrophe, I don't know. Maybe flight 93 was brought down maybe it wasn't. Does it matter? Had it been left it would have probably hit the White House and created a bigger coup for the terrorists. If it was shot down, for those on board the result was the same.

Unfortunately we live in a world where people take great relish in being able to distort video images and fool people, where it is easy to post such stuff on you tube or on Wikipedia and all of a sudden it has 'credibility'. Unfortunately, as the original event epitomises, we live in a very sick world.

 

[thejackal]

Jackal is quite clearly anti-american and I suspect if GW handed him a white sheet of paper, he would be adamant that it was in fact black but but had been altered to deceive everyone.

That's funny - I am American, or at least I have a US passport. Lived there, have family and loads of good friends there. I am definitely not anti-American!

 

[drew]

That's funny - I am American, or at least I have a US passport. Lived there, have family and loads of good friends there. I am definitely not anti-American!

You seem confused. Are you an American or not? Maybe I should clarify a little. You might love americans but you are certainly appear anti the American government in whatever shape or form it takes.

 

[thejackal]

You seem confused. Are you an American or not? Maybe I should clarify a little. You might love americans but you are certainly appear anti the American government in whatever shape or form it takes.

 

[thejackal]

I do not believe any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories. They are just theories and the counter arguments are facts. The problem with conspiracy theories is that when someone counters with facts the believers ignore it, say its a cover up, blame the Govt etc...and still carry on believing their theories, you just can not convince them. It is easier for them to believe a conspiracy than admit they were wrong and that what they have beliefs based on something that is unfounded, this upsets and angers them, they will say we have been hood winked and are ignorant. Then the cycle starts again. facts are proved, they ignore, etc, etc...

I'm sure you're right about some people Sergei, but I'm very happy to be proven wrong. I have changed my mind about lots of important things in my life and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I think it's an important part of mental and spiritual evolution, to be open to changing your mind about stuff.

But the sad fact is that the official story is actually just a theory too: there as never been a proper investigation; Bin Laden has consistently denied involvement; almost all of the evidence was destroyed before it could be analysed; none of the hundreds of hours of CCTV confiscated by the authorities, which could very probably settle a lot of these arguments, has been released; the Bush regime, the CIA, the FBI, NORAD all did their utmost to obfuscate and lie, and a lot of their testimony is contradictory and very hard to believe.

If you take some time to read the official report you will see that it is almost all conjecture, all theory, with very little in the way of provable fact. This is backed up by the seemingly strange fact that the FBI refused to count 9/11 as one of Bin Laden's crimes, right up to and including now, because they had, as they put it “no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”. See for yourself: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

The White House designed the commission to be vague and not look for guilt. Their remit was to 'find out what happened' but not to 'look for blame'. Take a look at the report, I'm pretty sure it's free to download. The opening passage reads like a thriller novel. It really makes you wonder what on earth the commission was trying to do.

But from a purely semantic point of view the official story is simply another conspiracy theory - the official conspiracy theory: the theory that Bin Laden and a bunch of fanatical Saudis conspired to plan and execute the most successful and audacious attack on the most heavily protected airspace in the word. There is no proof, no trial, no evidence, no admissions of guilt. Just theory. And as a theory, if you care to start scrutinising it, it just doesn't hold an awful lot of water.

This is why there are so many doubters of the official line. We're not all bonkers - we just want some honest answers to some very simple questions.