11 Year old shot

[Tooting Gull]

Well, it does still shock me. Maybe we'll get some kind of uprising in relation to this, enough is enough - or maybe it will take some other horrific murder.

But I am certain that this level of carnage on the streets cannot carry on, and there will at some stage be a Northern Ireland style reaction from the people. The problem is, that reaction has to come from the communities themselves, or it's a waste of time.

You really would think twice about getting involved on the street if you witnessed some misdemeanour/crime being committed. The perpetrator could easily have a knife or a gun - so are you most responsible to any victim, or your own wife/family/children? Pretty easy one to answer.

 

[Easy 10]

Don't the Malaysians chop your hand off if you drop chewing gum or something ?
OK, I know they make Protons, but maybe some EXTREME ZERO TOLERANCE is needed in this shitpit country. f*** human rights. Lets give full licence for some serious, permanent, on-the-spot physical DAMAGE to be done to these fuckers when they decide to break the LAW.

FEAR and DREAD is the only way to combat what is happening on our streets nowadays. The gloves have to come off.

I'm serious.

 

[clapham_gull]

I cannot buy this "impoverished" excuse. During the Great Depression, 80% of people were impoverished. If you were lucky enough to have a job as a "Navvy" digging ditches, you could look forward to a dinner of a Kipper. But there was not the lawlessness that there is today.

Difference was (I think) is that there was a sense of people "knowing their place"

That in itself wasn't a positive thing and social movements forced through changes where people aren't expected to live a certain life just because of the class they were born into.

However, the situation I think we are in is where you mix together the "potential to better yourself" where you see some of your peers doing so, but the absolute inability to do (because you are skint) you can be dealing with quite a potent mix.

And yes Croxteth isn't that bad an area(I've been there a few times), but neither is Clapham, but Billy Cox was shot dead at the end of my road.

 

[Tooting Gull]

Agree totally with the Easy-meister. The human rights act was intended to do one very noble and honourable thing, but is being totally abused to protect utter scum, which was never the intention.

Some of the lawyers involved should be ashamed of themselves, patting themselves on the back for extricating some toe-rag from jail with a bit of clever manipulation - while meanwhile out on the streets, a long way from where they live, it is bloody anarchy.

 

[Gully]

Perhaps this thread and the one about China being a disgrace should be merged, in that country they have capital punishment for people who have committed far less crimes than those mentioned here, not sure what they consider anti-social behaviour though.

 

[Silvanus]

Absolutely dreadful. RIP

 

[Beach Hut]

Sadly this a shocking indictment of society now.

The gun culture arrived from the USA and we now are stuck with it

 

[Easy 10]

I am coming round to the sincere belief that we need what basically borders on a police state, where lawlessness is no longer tolerated, and anyone committing violent crime will be met by swift and savage violence from the authorities either on the street, or when convicted. The low-life scum who come in and out of prison, and who offend and re-offend ad-infinitum will NEVER change their ways. I think they need to be beaten into some kind of vegetitive state whereby they are no longer capable of causing physical distress or harm to law-abiding citizens. They can spend the remainder of their useless lives dribbling in a wheelchair somewhere until they do everyone a favour and perish.

Eventually the message will hit home. If you are scum, and make the concious decision to CONTINUE to be scum, then sooner or later, your life will become deeply unpleasant, before it ends prematurely.

Is that so unreasonable ?

 

[Tooting Gull]

Well, I started the China thread and I don't see any contradiction. I'm shocked by what happens there, and by what happens here. At one end of the spectrum you have an unfettered regime murdering people, at the other you have total lawlessness and a disproportionate importance placed on rights, rather than responsibilities.

We in this country have moved far too near this, latter end - where you want to be, of course, is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Easy 10]

I fear its going to take more than "somewhere in the middle" to turn this country round though Tooting. Some drastic legislation is required - urgently - to enable our law enforcers to quite literally go out and crack some skulls. We've tried the lily-livered poor-little-Johnny liberal ways to tackle the breakdown of law and order on our streets, but its just getting worse and worse. The violent criminal underclass is growing and spreading, becoming bolder, because they know they can get away with it.

I think we've reached the stage now whereby violent crime must be met with a brutal, violent response. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fear and dread must be the driving dis-incentive towards committing these crimes. If the perps know they run the very real risk of severe physical retribution for their actions, then after enough beatings (and in extreme cases, deaths) we will begin to see a reduction in these crimes against innocent victims.

 

[Tooting Gull]

It's an increasingly attractive argument. I've spent a lot of time in Turkey, and there is a police culture there that would make your average liberal over here choke on their lentils.

There is real, genuine fear of their police - and for good reason. They are corrupt on many levels, especially traffic violations, and would think little of wrongful arrest/trumped up charges/violence in a police station. All with no comeback.

BUT - there is hardly any crime. At least not of the sort of crimes against the person we're talking about here, plus rape, robbery, and burglary.

I would much rather have our police, but they have to get a grip of this situation, and fast.

 

[Easy 10]

There is real, genuine fear of their police - and for good reason. They are corrupt on many levels, especially traffic violations, and would think little of wrongful arrest/trumped up charges/violence in a police station. All with no comeback.

BUT - there is hardly any crime. At least not of the sort of crimes against the person we're talking about here, plus rape, robbery, and burglary.

Interesting.
So the question is - Is that a price worth paying ?

We would like to hope that corruption in the police would not be such a factor in this country, or at least kept to an absolute minimum ("there's always one bad egg" etc). The fact is though, if we adopt extreme measures to deal with violent crime, there are perhaps going to be innocent casualties caught up in that. To a certain extent, its probably already happening.

BUT - if the ends justifies the means, if a greater majority are safer walking the streets as a result of a violent zero-tolerance response from the police, then maybe we should think it is a price worth paying. There *might* be injustices on this path for a small number of people, but if it means a drastic overall reduction in theft, rape, race-hate crime and murder that is running out of control in this country, then perhaps it really is a price worth paying ?

I dunno. But it really does need something drastic IMHO.

 

[Shizuoka Dolphin]

Second world country, Engand, innit.

 

[Kukev31]

It's an increasingly attractive argument. I've spent a lot of time in Turkey, and there is a police culture there that would make your average liberal over here choke on their lentils.

There is real, genuine fear of their police - and for good reason. They are corrupt on many levels, especially traffic violations, and would think little of wrongful arrest/trumped up charges/violence in a police station. All with no comeback.

BUT - there is hardly any crime. At least not of the sort of crimes against the person we're talking about here, plus rape, robbery, and burglary.

I would much rather have our police, but they have to get a grip of this situation, and fast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_murder_rate

This table shows Turkey as having a higher murder rate.

It also shows the considerable amount our murder rate has increased by.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...lled-after-being-shot-in-head-64375-19674953/

In Liverpool, these incidents tend to be targetted shootings related to some street gang dispute - usually about drugs and territory. You can't tell from this yet whether the victim was the target or got caught by a stray bullet.

Local gangs do have young members who do get involved in violence (see below for example) - 11 is still very young to be involved though. This could be relatedto the story below as there has been a turf war going on between gangs in Norris Green and Croxteth (you wouldn't want to live in either given the choice)

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...gers-in-clashes-after-funeral-64375-17832667/

 

[tedebear]

A big part to play in this is the loss of decent parenting in society....

Where are your kids, what are they doing, what have they been doing...Have they enough discipline to know right from wrong.....Raising your children is YOUR OWN responsibility not the society or state in which we live.

If enough parents cared and parented in an old fashioned way then the incidence of children killing children will fall....

So when this happens - not only should the child be locked up the parent should be too...

 

[Starry]

A big part to play in this is the loss of decent parenting in society....

Where are your kids, what are they doing, what have they been doing...Have they enough discipline to know right from wrong.....Raising your children is YOUR OWN responsibility not the society or state in which we live.

If enough parents cared and parented in an old fashioned way then the incidence of children killing children will fall....

So when this happens - not only should the child be locked up the parent should be too...

I pretty much agree with that.

Just so sad. Eleven years old, poor boy.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

There should be a distinction made between the 'old' part of Croxteth and the 'new'. Where that poor unfortunate lad died is a very decent new housing estate which is pretty massive and a reasonable lower middle class area. All around there are areas of extreme need in Croxteth, Gilmoss and as has been mentioned Norris Green. Those are all pretty scary places, perhaps even worse than Toxteth which gets all the headlines because of its large immigrant population. Oh and there was the small matter of the riots....

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

I'm with Easy on this. Time for a clampdown, no matter which side of the political divide you park your car. We have to be prepared to have it a bit rough to tackle this problem, and civil liberties will be tested. Subject to continual review so that the Government doesn't get complacent about their powers, but taking the CSOs off the street to do paperwork, and putting trained coppers out there instead would be a start - and arm them, and give them a proper legal defence for their action rather than just holding them up as scapegoats. No more wringing hands a la Guantanamo about innocents being arrested - take over a couple of military camps and buy some razor wire, no telly, no radio, hard labour with no sick notes. And yes, there will be innocents that get lost along the way, but we'll class that as collateral damage to a greater solution. We've done the social work approach, it failed. Time to change.

On another note - every scumbag that a human rights lawyer gets off on a technicality should be invited to live with that lawyer for a week, to prove that they really are the "poor, misunderstood soul" that they claim.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Maybe what we need is an Islamic state ?