[Albion] Mats Wieffer SINGS on 5 year contract

One Teddy Maybank · Jun 24, 2024

Farehamseagull said:
I’d be just as confident signing as player from the Eredivisie as I would be from the Bundesliga or Serie A. The league that transfers best to the Premier League is Ligue 1, apart from that, much of a muchness.

If not dumb to say we should never sign a player from Eredivisie, it certainly shows a lack of understanding of how scouting and football data analysis works.

Probably depends if you’re looking for potential investment or PL ready.

I would certainly argue that other countries fair better than Holland in the PL.
Must admit, I’m always surprised that teams don’t go after Serie A players, who always look technically better….

One Teddy Maybank · Jun 24, 2024

Machiavelli said:
Have to differ on Martinez who is a fantastic all-round CB, quick, aggressive, really good in the air for his height, and one of the best around on the ball. Rate Gakpo too. We'll just have to agree on RvN

Sure you’re not mistaking Cody with Danny Gakpo?

Zeberdi · Jun 24, 2024

chickens said:
Another concern is that @Zeberdi seemed to think he was prone to late lunge challenges. If he’s doing that in the Dutch league, he’ll hit the player behind the one he was aiming for in the Premier League.

It just was a minor something that was mentioned in the analysis I posted above but I also picked up on in watching some (old?) videos. I was looking at his stats from 2022/23 - where he picked up 9 yellow cards - 3 in the Europas. Interestingly, in 2023/4, he seemed to be used higher and his yellow card stats went down but maybe he just got better at tackling?

One of the reasons I think Weiffer will need development and training if he is going to be the sole central defender in a back 3/DM (apart from improving his agility) is that Slot’s 4-2-3-1 shape in possession was more akin to De Zerbi ball than Hürzeler‘s. Here, Weiffer and Kökcü act as the double pivot in possession and rather than either of them dropping back into the back line out of possession, acting as a pair, they keep close to the CBs but occupy the space beyond the oppos front line. When defending behind a high press, they defend moderately high up as a central midfield pairing. Perhaps we see a potential for a pairing with Gilmour or Baleba until Hürzeler has adapted the side to his system?

I think wherever he plays, he will bring an attacking energy, experience and healthy aggression to our midfield - clearly he’s worked well as one half of a pivot and is considered a ‘rising star’ by Feyenoord as well as having played for the Netherlands in the Euros and has also played in the Champions league and Europas.

No one should be ruled out on the basis of playing in a “lesser” league than the EPL but It remains to be seen how well he could adapt to the intensity and pace of the Premier League. If the rumours are true though, he is a sought after CM by larger Clubs than us and at 23, could be a great investment.

BrickTamland · Jun 24, 2024

Zeberdi said:
It just was a minor something that was mentioned in the analysis I posted above but I also picked up on in watching some (old?) videos. I was looking at his stats from 2022/23 - where he picked up 9 yellow cards - 3 in the Europas. Interestingly, in 2023/4, he seemed to be used higher and his yellow card stats went down but maybe he just got better at tackling?

View attachment 184634

View attachment 184635
One of the reasons I think Weiffer will need development and training if he is going to be the sole central defender in a back 3/DM (apart from improving his agility) is that Slot’s 4-2-3-1 shape in possession was more akin to De Zerbi ball than Hürzeler‘s. Here, Weiffer and Kökcü act as the double pivot in possession and rather than either of them dropping back into the back line out of possession, acting as a pair, they keep close to the CBs but occupy the space beyond the oppos front line. When defending behind a high press, they defend moderately high up as a central midfield pairing. Perhaps we see a potential for a pairing with Gilmour or Baleba until Hürzeler has adapted the side to his system?

View attachment 184632
I think wherever he plays, he will bring an attacking energy, experience and healthy aggression to our midfield - clearly he’s worked well as one half of a pivot and is considered a ‘rising star’ by Feyenoord as well as having played for the Netherlands in the Euros and has also played in the Champions league and Europas.

No one should be ruled out on the basis of playing in a “lesser” league than the EPL but It remains to be seen how well he could adapt to the intensity and pace of the Premier League. If the rumours are true though, he is a sought after CM by larger Clubs than us and at 23, could be a great investment.

Not really sure why you think he’d be bought to play the CB role? Everything about him screams CDM and everything about our squad screams we need a CDM.

Machiavelli · Jun 24, 2024

BrickTamland said:
Not really sure why you think he’d be bought to play the CB role? Everything about him screams CDM and everything about our squad screams we need a CDM.

Because the middle CB is the key to FH's system. The one at St Pauli, Smith, is a converted CM. FH plays a 343 system, but the middle CB moves into the DCM role when in possession.

um bongo molongo · Jun 24, 2024

Zeberdi said:
Sorry - edited my post to make it shorter.

My opinions don’t count more than anyone else’s on here but I think he is no more or no less than what we can expect for £30m - a good mid-level recruitment target that needs some training/more development under a manager who has a clear DNA to his system - we are not going to get a Beckenbauer (or even a Caicedo) at that price.

I just think his dribbling skills (a must for modern CB’s to transition the ball into midfield and break through a high press) and ability to cope with fast, high attacking forwards could let him down a bit.

I’m holding back a bit on all the gushing that’s all but I think he could be a solid signing with a lot of potential.

I guess I’m hoping for another South American starlet that Tim Vickery gushes over…

pigmanovich · Jun 24, 2024

Zeberdi said:
It just was a minor something that was mentioned in the analysis I posted above but I also picked up on in watching some (old?) videos. I was looking at his stats from 2022/23 - where he picked up 9 yellow cards - 3 in the Europas. Interestingly, in 2023/4, he seemed to be used higher and his yellow card stats went down but maybe he just got better at tackling?

View attachment 184634

View attachment 184635
One of the reasons I think Weiffer will need development and training if he is going to be the sole central defender in a back 3/DM (apart from improving his agility) is that Slot’s 4-2-3-1 shape in possession was more akin to De Zerbi ball than Hürzeler‘s. Here, Weiffer and Kökcü act as the double pivot in possession and rather than either of them dropping back into the back line out of possession, acting as a pair, they keep close to the CBs but occupy the space beyond the oppos front line. When defending behind a high press, they defend moderately high up as a central midfield pairing. Perhaps we see a potential for a pairing with Gilmour or Baleba until Hürzeler has adapted the side to his system?

View attachment 184632
I think wherever he plays, he will bring an attacking energy, experience and healthy aggression to our midfield - clearly he’s worked well as one half of a pivot and is considered a ‘rising star’ by Feyenoord as well as having played for the Netherlands in the Euros and has also played in the Champions league and Europas.

No one should be ruled out on the basis of playing in a “lesser” league than the EPL but It remains to be seen how well he could adapt to the intensity and pace of the Premier League. If the rumours are true though, he is a sought after CM by larger Clubs than us and at 23, could be a great investment.

He's 24! Good food for thought though.

Zeberdi · Jun 24, 2024

BrickTamland said:
Not really sure why you think he’d be bought to play the CB role? Everything about him screams CDM and everything about our squad screams we need a CDM.

I don’t.

I don’t know why you would get that impression from a post that clearly demonstrates in several ways that Weiffer’s background at Feyenoord is as a Central Midfield Defender - did you actually understand any of the post or even read it?.

That’s the whole point of my post and previous ones to demonstrate why I think the CB/DM role that Hürzeler has used at St Pauli (and the system he may want to use at Brighton) is something Weiffer is not particularly right for, especially without any development or training. I’ve literally just said we could be bringing him in to partner Gilmour or Baleba in CDM

Read the thread. Several posters up thread were saying he’d be a good fit as a ‘libero’ type CB and I’m questioning that (at the moment) is all.

um bongo molongo · Jun 24, 2024

Zeberdi said:
I don’t.

I don’t know why you would get that impression from a post that clearly demonstrates in several ways that Weiffer’s background at Feyenoord is as a Central Midfield Defender - did you actually understand any of the post or even read it?.

That’s the whole point of my post and previous ones to demonstrate why I think the CB/DM role that Hürzeler has used at St Pauli (and the system he may want to use at Brighton) is something Weiffer is not particularly right for, especially without any development or training. I’ve literally just said we could be bringing him in to partner Gilmour or Baleba in CDM

Read the thread. Several posters up thread were saying he’d be a good fit as a ‘libero’ type CB and I’m questioning that (at the moment) is all.

I wonder whether it’s feasible Baleba, Dunk or even Hinshelwood could become the CB/CDM with this guy more advanced. We certainly need some agression and physicality although I’d like to see us bring in some athleticism/pace in that area of the pitch too.

BrickTamland · Jun 24, 2024

Zeberdi said:
I don’t.

I don’t know why you would get that impression from a post that clearly demonstrates in several ways that Weiffer’s background at Feyenoord is as a Central Midfield Defender - did you actually understand any of the post or even read it?.

That’s the whole point of my post and previous ones to demonstrate why I think the CB/DM role that Hürzeler has used at St Pauli (and the system he may want to use at Brighton) is something Weiffer is not particularly right for, especially without any development or training. I’ve literally just said we could be bringing him in to partner Gilmour or Baleba in CDM

Read the thread. Several posters up thread were saying he’d be a good fit as a ‘libero’ type CB and I’m questioning that (at the moment) is all.

Thanks for the analysis. No need to be arsey, was just a question.

You mentioned him at CB multiple times, hence my question. You even said ‘we could be bringing him in alongside WBG/Baleba’ as if it was a potential use for him, rather than his primary reason - which is clearly as a DM as that is where he plays and is also the glaring hole in our squad.

Either way, looks a real player and excited by the stats. If Tony thinks he’s the right fit, that’s god enough for me.

Hugo Rune · Jun 24, 2024

um bongo molongo said:
I wonder whether it’s feasible Baleba, Dunk or even Hinshelwood could become the CB/CDM with this guy more advanced. We certainly need some agression and physicality although I’d like to see us bring in some athleticism/pace in that area of the pitch too.

I think this CB/CDM position is facinating but I think the ‘CB’ part of it is being a little overplayed by people.

My view of the Hürzeler tactics is that in possession, the allocated player clearly jumps out of defence into CDM as a deep lying playmaker. In front of him, everyone is on the move finding space and swapping positions. Wing backs pile forward, wings tuck in to the centre, one midfield joins the attack, the other sits in the hole. This is where Mats Wieffer or someone with his passing abilities would excel. I don’t think this role requires the player to dribble or even carry the ball too far forwards.

So then we look to defence. Hürzeler is seemingly more concerned about this than RDZ ever was or ever will be. Wieffer has been identified at having great positioning and aerial skills. He is going to be a monster defending set-pieces in the air. Hopefully better than either Webster or Igor. With Dunk and Van Hecke there to instruct him, I think he’ll thrive when we are trying to stop high balls coming in.

There is then this weakness with late tackles and a lack of pace. I think this is genuine and needs working on but I believe that Hürzeler is not keen (like RDZ) for his two centre backs to bomb forward meaning the likes of Dunk and Van Hecke should be there to cover if Wieffer fails. The rest of the team can help cover the defensive shortfalls. What is more important is the deep lying playmaker ability. Short fast and accurate passes. This is where this Wieffer apparently excels.

Zeberdi · Jun 25, 2024

Hugo Rune said:
I think this CB/CDM position is facinating but I think the ‘CB’ part of it is being a little overplayed by people.

My view of the Hürzeler tactics is that in possession, the allocated player clearly jumps out of defence into CDM as a deep lying playmaker. In front of him, everyone is on the move finding space and swapping positions. Wing backs pile forward, wings tuck in to the centre, one midfield joins the attack, the other sits in the hole. This is where Mats Wieffer or someone with his passing abilities would excel. I don’t think this role requires the player to dribble or even carry the ball too far forwards.

So then we look to defence. Hürzeler is seemingly more concerned about this than RDZ ever was or ever will be. Wieffer has been identified at having great positioning and aerial skills. He is going to be a monster defending set-pieces in the air. Hopefully better than either Webster or Igor. With Dunk and Van Hecke there to instruct him, I think he’ll thrive when we are trying to stop high balls coming in.

There is then this weakness with late tackles and a lack of pace. I think this is genuine and needs working on but I believe that Hürzeler is not keen (like RDZ) for his two centre backs to bomb forward meaning the likes of Dunk and Van Hecke should be there to cover if Wieffer fails. The rest of the team can help cover the defensive shortfalls. What is more important is the deep lying playmaker ability. Short fast and accurate passes. This is where this Wieffer apparently excels.

Yes, that’s more or less the system as I understand it (with minor tweaks)

My thinking is that the build up from the back in ‘Fabi-ball’ is different to De Zerbi-ball - because there is only 3 at the back, there is less circulation between the GK and defenders/WBs - the play is stretched into a diamond shape (not tight little triangles) with the outside defenders moving wide and the WBs jumping forward, the transition into the MF is much sooner. The key to Hürzeler’s successful defensive record is in his ability to transition from an intense pressing formation into a 5-2-3 very quickly when losing possession and using that as a base to launch a counterattack.

The back line defender is not a role Weiffer’s played before (Slot plays a De Zerbiesque 4,2,3,1 with Weiffer as the one part of double pivot between the lines) but sometimes changing a player’s role can be a Eureka moment in their career.

As soon as the season starts and all the speculation about what FH will do and with whom the better

Garry Nelson's Left Foot · Jun 25, 2024

I wonder if Tony or any of the analysts and recruitment team have considered the 'we shouldn't sign players from Holland because some of them are shit' argument?

Someone needs to email barber sharpish just in case they haven't.

The Wookiee · Jun 25, 2024

Kalimantan Gull said:
These are the 25 highest transfer fees paid to Eredivisie clubs. Wieffer would settle into 14th on this list. Will let you decide if these players were any good or not..

View attachment 184628

Just as a comparison, I would like to see the same lists for players from the Italian league,Spanish league, German league and French league -
I would guess there just as many failures

Paulie Gualtieri · Jun 25, 2024

Garry Nelson's Left Foot said:
I wonder if Tony or any of the analysts and recruitment team have considered the 'we shouldn't sign players from Holland because some of them are shit' argument?

Someone needs to email barber sharpish just in case they haven't

=If(B2,”shit”,(No,Yeah,””))

Guinness Boy · Jun 25, 2024

Personally, I’m more worried about the reported lack of pace than where we’re getting him from.

Pace just doesn’t seem to be a data point in our models.

One Teddy Maybank · Jun 25, 2024

The Wookiee said:
Just as a comparison, I would like to see the same lists for players from the Italian league,Spanish league, German league and French league -
I would guess there just as many failures

Though when you look at the national squads in those countries, there seem to be a larger proportion playing domestically…. So possibly its not always the very best players that come here?

One Teddy Maybank · Jun 25, 2024

Machiavelli said:
Because the middle CB is the key to FH's system. The one at St Pauli, Smith, is a converted CM. FH plays a 343 system, but the middle CB moves into the DCM role when in possession.

JPvH played that role at Fulham (DCM).

Hugo Rune · Jun 25, 2024

One Teddy Maybank said:
JPvH played that role at Fulham (DCM).

That experiment ended with a 3-0 defeat. RDZ decided to play every defender we had in the squad for some reason? Was he trying to make a point?

Justice · Jun 25, 2024

One Teddy Maybank said:
JPvH played that role at Fulham (DCM).

That was a car crash

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