Wouldnt happen In Germany

[JC Footy Genius]

Sure although they will be highly summarised

1.) Mass unprecedented immigration to the UK.

to be honest I don't really have any strong views on this as it is all wrapped up in the EU in or out debate so is highly complex. What I will say is that if the Uk government is going to continue with such large numbers of immigrants it need to vastly improve services.

The main problem with the immigration debate IMHO is that it is used by those in power to distract the masses from the right royal screwing that it being enforced on them by said power brokers. Immigrants and foreigners are a far easier target for people than those who are really taking things away from them.

2.) Processing/vetting a million plus refugees/migrants so only the 'genuine' cases get the well deserved assistance.

Unless this is addressed on a global scale and countries (including my adopted one) start to take in more refugees then certain areas are going to continue to take an imbalanced amount of Asylum Seekers. It seems pretty clear to me that the reason Europe has so many Asylum Seekers making a beeline for it is that firstly their is a minimal chance of finding refuge through the overcrowded refugee camps and if there is a chance then it takes years for that process to bear fruit. Secondly many of the countries taking in refugees closer to or in the middle east are full to breaking point with numbers of refugees.

The systems currently in place (based on UN protocols from 1955) are inadequate and out of date and desperately need revisiting. The main problem i have with the solutions often offered on these threads is that it appears that many people are simply happy to push the problem elsewhere rather than address it (I may be wrong about this as it is difficult to pin people down on this point). As i have said a few times I think we have a responsibility to assist these people, this is for two reasons: firstly because i think that if people need help we have a responsibility to do so (bleeding heart etc etc) and secondly we are wrapped up via our elected governments in the problems that are causing the refugee crisis in the first place.

3.) How to combat Islamic radicalisation/incompatibility of some widely held basic fundamental Islamic beliefs with western values.

I am not convinced that their are basic fundamental Islamic beliefs that are incompatible with western values. There are certainly some Muslims who believe stuff that is incompatible with Western values but that isn't to say they are fundamental to Islam. The Muslims i know and have encountered rub along quite nicely with everyone else and show no incompatible beliefs or values. Those extremists spoiling for a fight on this issue (on both sides) would have us believe that we can't live together but personally I think this is bullshit propaganda.

What the extremists want is to drive a wedge between Islam and the rest of the world. They want us to fear Islam and hate Islam. If we do this then they are getting what they want. They also get a whole lot of support due to the west bombing middle eastern countries, so they want this to continue as it drives their cause. So my first suggestion is to not give them what they want!

It seems to me that suggestions made about choking the supply lines to groups like ISIS is the way to go. Sadly it seems that this would involve upsetting some of our allies in the region (Saudi Arabia etc) and possibly depending on the validity of the reports mean a distinct down turn in the US arms trade. This approach may also involve the US (and by extension the UK and Australia et al) taking a less hands on role in the middle east. Sadly none of this is likely to happen so I guess the only viable answer is continued air strikes or 'boots on the ground". Air strikes I feel are giving them what they want so i am hesitant to support this.

Firstly thanks for summarising your views many people seem to talk past each other on these issues rather than trying to find some common ground or arrive at a better understanding of opposing views.

On the first question I would disagree with your view that this issue is used as a distraction by those in power to divert us from more important problems. If anything the political establishment have studiously ignored and tried to suppress the growing concerns and downplay the issues. Only when their powerbase has been threatened by the electoral success of UKIP have they even acknowledged this is a serious concern. Even now only the Tories pay lip service to reducing the numbers but in reality make no substantive changes. Basically people don't like change especially at the rate it is happening and without any electoral mandate or consultation.

On the second question I think resolving the problem of vetting millions of people (understandably) trying to find a better life is almost insoluble and I would not conveniently categorize them all as 'refugees'. IMHO i think most come for economic reasons (majority are single young men) and are encouraged/cajoled by criminal gangs to head to the promised land. Major wars and sectarian violence have been ongoing for a long time in the middle east yet it is only recently that numbers of refugees/migrants have suddenly increased. There isn't even agreement on quotas at a European level let alone globally so finding any real world practical solution is nigh on impossible. Inability to secure the outer European borders has led to severe security failings leading to the many issues highlighted in these threads.Increased levels of Terrorism ,mass sexual/criminal assaults and severe societal cohesiveness and integration problems are a high price to pay for being seen to do the right thing.

On the third question I can't see how you could view the treatment of women or the Islamic teachings about different sexual persuasions or non believers as well as apostates as compatible with western liberal values. Many major religions once held these views but most have gone through some sort of enforced adaptation /enlightenment. Islam has not and unfortunately still has a vice like grip on most of it's followers. Yes the most dangerous threat come from a minority but when you increase the overall numbers by such vast amounts that minority also increases as does the threat. You are right extremists want to divide communities but ignoring blatant religious intolerance and cultural practises that are alien to our values does the same.

As others have said probably best we agree to disagree!

 

[BadFish]

Firstly thanks for summarising your views many people seem to talk past each other on these issues rather than trying to find some common ground or arrive at a better understanding of opposing views.

On the first question I would disagree with your view that this issue is used as a distraction by those in power to divert us from more important problems. If anything the political establishment have studiously ignored and tried to suppress the growing concerns and downplay the issues. Only when their powerbase has been threatened by the electoral success of UKIP have they even acknowledged this is a serious concern. Even now only the Tories pay lip service to reducing the numbers but in reality make no substantive changes. Basically people don't like change especially at the rate it is happening and without any electoral mandate or consultation.

I think you are correct here although as part of the bigger picture I think that the rise of UKIP is/was a bit of an irritation for them as they want us moaning about and directing our anger and mistrust towards them rather than actually doing anything about it. As you say the government(s) are not going to do anything about it because it is a useful weapon in their armory.

On the second question I think resolving the problem of vetting millions of people (understandably) trying to find a better life is almost insoluble and I would not conveniently categorize them all as 'refugees'. IMHO i think most come for economic reasons (majority are single young men) and are encouraged/cajoled by criminal gangs to head to the promised land. Major wars and sectarian violence have been ongoing for a long time in the middle east yet it is only recently that numbers of refugees/migrants have suddenly increased. There isn't even agreement on quotas at a European level let alone globally so finding any real world practical solution is nigh on impossible. Inability to secure the outer European borders has led to severe security failings leading to the many issues highlighted in these threads.Increased levels of Terrorism ,mass sexual/criminal assaults and severe societal cohesiveness and integration problems are a high price to pay for being seen to do the right thing.

I disagree with your point about the sudden influx and rise in numbers coming out of the blue. I think you can directly link this to ISIS actions in Syria (the reason so many of the refugees in Europe are Syrian)

I think we are never going to agree on the point about economic migrants because no-one can ever really know the ratio of real refugees, economic migrants and terrorists. I think this is where most of the disagreements stem from. From my own personal experiences with Asylum Seekers and refugees i have not seen any reason to doubt any of their (very harrowing) stories. Incidentally i have spoken with many male refugees who have left their families behind in order to try and find safety for them. There reasons for doing this are quite simply because they have little idea of what to expect when fleeing countries aside from it being dangerous and the fact that if caught they will be killed (as many are apparently). back on point though i think the only way to really solve this problem is to have a more efficient method of assessing claims and finding out peoples true intentions. I agree that it is probably a nigh on impossible task but also think that things can be done better than they currently are.

Many of the suggestions for solutions offered on these kinds of threads more or less equate to treating all Asylum Seekers with mistrust and putting up barriers to keep them out. Im y opinion this is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bath water and really only serves to move the problem onto someone else. As i understand it the largests hosts of refugees are Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. If we succeed in keeping them out of Australia and Europe are we just leaving it to other countries to deal with the crisis? Like i say i think we have a responsibility to assist people in need and think we should do more (especially Australia) others are happy with the level of help given. Agree to disagree seems like a good idea.

On the third question I can't see how you could view the treatment of women or the Islamic teachings about different sexual persuasions or non believers as well as apostates as compatible with western liberal values. Many major religions once held these views but most have gone through some sort of enforced adaptation /enlightenment. Islam has not and unfortunately still has a vice like grip on most of it's followers. Yes the most dangerous threat come from a minority but when you increase the overall numbers by such vast amounts that minority also increases as does the threat. You are right extremists want to divide communities but ignoring blatant religious intolerance and cultural practises that are alien to our values does the same.

As others have said probably best we agree to disagree!

I agree that some Mulsims' beliefs are outdated and archaic. However I think that this is not an Islamic problem as there are also many muslims that have moderate values compatible with ours (most i meet certainly). Many have as you put it 'been through enlightenment/adaptation" and do not live in a 'vice like grip" as i said before the extremists among us who are spoiling for a fight would like us to believe that this is the case but my experience tells me different. I think it is an oversimplification to say that Mulism are........ I think you have to look closer at certain countries and their beliefs rather than Islam as a whole to define the beliefs and actions you are discussing. This fella explains it better than i can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

For the record I agree entirely that we should not ignore intolerance and barbaric cultural practices is folly and they should be criticised and feel the full weight of the law and the full scorn of moderate and liberal people everywhere. On the same point i think it is also folly to ignore the moderate Muslims that rub along very nicely with the rest of us Something which IMHO these threads can be accused of doing - they contain endless links to Muslims doing bad things with little acknowledgement of anything else done by muslims. This is the reason i spend so much time on them because i think this needs challenging and the reason they always end up on The Other Stuff. This is not a discussion about Islam it is a lop sided Hatchet job and anyone who disagrees or tries to offer a little balance is abused and hounded off the thread but the vocal minority.

In fact lets have some balance

Thanks for this discussion though it is nice to talk to someone who actually wants to discuss the issues. I don't think we are going to agree but i certainly see your points.

 

[BadFish]

15 things I learnt about Islam and British values being a gay boy living opposite a mosque.

No mosque has enough parking and muslim men love to complain about it. I don’t care how young or trendy they are, within seconds they will be pointing at bits of pavement muttering about the number of cars you could fit in there — like my Granddad from Manchester does at Sainsbury’s

You can do that look British people do to each other, when someone near by is making a scene, in a full face veil.
Muslims pray a lot.

You will be happy they pray a lot when you get stabbed on your door step and are too scared to go outside. So you time your trips to the shops to coincide with these prays as the streets are full of friendly people.

Muslims, like all British people have that one problematic uncle that kinda ruins family occasions.

When confronted with something out of their comfort zone, like me and my boyfriend in full drag dancing down the road, muslims like all British people get flustered and over compensate with being overly polite — a bit like Hugh Grant.

When finding out you have been dating your boyfriend for 5 years your muslim neighbours will be disgusted that you haven’t proposed. You hear “get a civil partnership — for your mothers sake” a lot.

Apparently there is usually half a cup of tea next to the pray matt when praying at home — especially for morning prayers.
Like in the rest of Britain all muslim fathers think their daughter is smarter than everyone, even though she is only 6 years old…
…and that their son is a heartbreaker even though its clear to everyone else that he spends all his time on his Xbox.
Young muslim women are really, really, really ambitious.

British people’s dry sarcasm works really well when confronting the times the more traditional parts of islam come face to face with modern gay culture. For example when I donated 3 sequined crop tops to the islamic relief Syria clothing drive, one of the older guys their smirked, shaking my hand and saying “our brothers and sisters in Syria thank you for the evening wear.”

There is always an Aunt who gets too involved in the wedding planning and annoys the bride.

During ramadan and eid there will be so many people on the streets going to mosque that the drugs dealers will have to move to other places — making your area really safe for a while.

Mothers will say anything to stop their kids nagging them. I once saw a Muslim mother tell her kid that wanted some fried chicken, after Friday night prayers, that the shop wasn’t halal even though there was a 5ft sq neon halal sign in the window. Reminds me of when my mum told me that the chip shop was closed for a private event as she wanted some peace.

 

[BadFish]

8 Great Modern Innovations We Can Thank Muslims For

1. Algebra

Many Westerners, Germans in particular, are proud of their feats of technology and engineering. But where would engineers be without algebra?

The mathematical system became known in Europe in the twelfth century, when British Arabist Robert of Chester translated the writings of Arab scholar Al-Khwarizmi. Al-Khwarizmi, for whom algorithms are named, is known as the developer of modern algebra.

2. The toothbrush

Islam was the one of the first world religions to place particular emphasis on bodily hygiene. The Qur’an includes instructions for ritual washing. It is no wonder, therefore, that dental hygiene also grew in popularity as Islam did. Admittedly, the ancient Egyptians are thought to have chewed on twigs from the “toothbrush tree.”

However, the twigs, also known as “miswak”, only became known to a wider public when the Prophet Mohammed regularly used them to brush his teeth. While there is no mention of miswak twigs in the Qur’an, they are mentioned many times in writings by Muslim scholars.

3. Marching bands

Military marching bands date back to the Ottoman Mehterhane. These were bands which played during the entire battle and only ceased their music-making when the army retreated or the battle was over.

During the wars with the Ottoman Empire, the bands are thought to have made a considerable impression on European soldiers – after which they adapted the principle for their own use.

4. The guitar

The guitar, as we know it today, has its origins in the Arabic oud – a lute with a bent neck. During the Middle Ages, it found its way to Muslim Spain, where it was referred to as “qitara” in the Arabic of Andalusia.

It is said that a music teacher brought one to the court of the Umayyad ruler Abdel Rahman II in the ninth century. The modern guitar developed as a result of many influences, but the Arabic lute was an important predecessor.

5. Magnifying glass/glasses

Not only did the Arab world revolutionize mathematics – it also revolutionized optics. The scholar Alhazen (Abu al-Hasan) from Basra was the first person to describe how the eye works.

He carried out experiments with reflective materials and proved that the eye does not sense the environment with “sight rays,” as scientists had believed up until then. He also discovered that curved glass surfaces can be used for magnification.

His glass “reading stones” were the first magnifying glasses. It was from these that glasses were later developed. Furthermore, Alhazen wrote important scholarly texts on astronomy and meteorology.

6. Coffee

Coffee is the best known of the Muslim world’s exports. While it originated in Ethiopia, it soon found its way over the Red Sea to the Arabian peninsula, where it grew in popularity.

It is thought that an Ottoman merchant brought the bean-based beverage to London in the 17th century. Venice gained its first coffee house in 1645, while Germany got to know the drink following the retreat of the Turks from Austria in 1683. Legend has it that the Sultan’s soldiers left sackloads of coffee behind.

7. Hospitals

The first modern hospital with nurses and a training centre was in Cairo. In the Ahmed Ibn Tulun hospital (named for the founder of the Tulunid dynasty), which was established in the year 872, all patients received free health care – a Muslim tradition which was institutionalized with the advent of the hospital.

Slightly more basic hospitals had existed prior to this in Baghdad. But it was the Cairo model which would later serve as the template for hospitals all around the globe.

8. Surgical Innovations

The Andalusian-born doctor Albucasis (Abu al-Kasim) was one of the most significant medical figures of the Middle Ages. In the more than 30 volumes he wrote, the tenth-century Arab scholar described how important a positive patient-doctor relationship is, and argued for the same standard of medical care for all, regardless of social class.

He also invented methods for surgically treating diseases of the urethra, the ear and the esophagus, and was the first person to describe an ectopic pregnancy. So great was his influence that he was still being quoted by leading European physicians in the 16th century. His ideas shaped modern surgery.

This piece originally appeared on HuffPost Germany and was translated into English.

CORRECTION: Language has been amended throughout this article to more accurately characterize the contributions of Muslims, which in some cases represent significant improvements to previous technologies rather than the invention of those technologies outright. A previous version identified Arabic numerals as an Islamic invention; they are of Hindu derivation. It also overstated how long Islam has been in existence.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I would say some people in Germany are well and truly losing the plot. When will the pandering end.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/13/germanys-tele5-tv-channel/

 

[Hastings gull]

I think you are correct here although as part of the bigger picture I think that the rise of UKIP is/was a bit of an irritation for them as they want us moaning about and directing our anger and mistrust towards them rather than actually doing anything about it. As you say the government(s) are not going to do anything about it because it is a useful weapon in their armory.



I disagree with your point about the sudden influx and rise in numbers coming out of the blue. I think you can directly link this to ISIS actions in Syria (the reason so many of the refugees in Europe are Syrian)

I think we are never going to agree on the point about economic migrants because no-one can ever really know the ratio of real refugees, economic migrants and terrorists. I think this is where most of the disagreements stem from. From my own personal experiences with Asylum Seekers and refugees i have not seen any reason to doubt any of their (very harrowing) stories. Incidentally i have spoken with many male refugees who have left their families behind in order to try and find safety for them. There reasons for doing this are quite simply because they have little idea of what to expect when fleeing countries aside from it being dangerous and the fact that if caught they will be killed (as many are apparently). back on point though i think the only way to really solve this problem is to have a more efficient method of assessing claims and finding out peoples true intentions. I agree that it is probably a nigh on impossible task but also think that things can be done better than they currently are.

Many of the suggestions for solutions offered on these kinds of threads more or less equate to treating all Asylum Seekers with mistrust and putting up barriers to keep them out. Im y opinion this is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bath water and really only serves to move the problem onto someone else. As i understand it the largests hosts of refugees are Pakistan, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. If we succeed in keeping them out of Australia and Europe are we just leaving it to other countries to deal with the crisis? Like i say i think we have a responsibility to assist people in need and think we should do more (especially Australia) others are happy with the level of help given. Agree to disagree seems like a good idea.



I agree that some Mulsims' beliefs are outdated and archaic. However I think that this is not an Islamic problem as there are also many muslims that have moderate values compatible with ours (most i meet certainly). Many have as you put it 'been through enlightenment/adaptation" and do not live in a 'vice like grip" as i said before the extremists among us who are spoiling for a fight would like us to believe that this is the case but my experience tells me different. I think it is an oversimplification to say that Mulism are........ I think you have to look closer at certain countries and their beliefs rather than Islam as a whole to define the beliefs and actions you are discussing. This fella explains it better than i can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

For the record I agree entirely that we should not ignore intolerance and barbaric cultural practices is folly and they should be criticised and feel the full weight of the law and the full scorn of moderate and liberal people everywhere. On the same point i think it is also folly to ignore the moderate Muslims that rub along very nicely with the rest of us Something which IMHO these threads can be accused of doing - they contain endless links to Muslims doing bad things with little acknowledgement of anything else done by muslims. This is the reason i spend so much time on them because i think this needs challenging and the reason they always end up on The Other Stuff. This is not a discussion about Islam it is a lop sided Hatchet job and anyone who disagrees or tries to offer a little balance is abused and hounded off the thread but the vocal minority.

In fact lets have some balance

Thanks for this discussion though it is nice to talk to someone who actually wants to discuss the issues. I don't think we are going to agree but i certainly see your points.

What you have written and the reply by JC are really interesting, and this is you at your best.!! I would hate to think that anyone feels that they are hounded out, and I hope that ALL readers take note. There is, however, a difference between disagreeing with you and hounding you out. Often it is a question of tone, and rather like Nibble, you are quick to come in with one-liners designed to provoke and humiliate (with the occasional insult) and then complain when it is directed at you in return. Yes, there might be more "having a go" and it seems to you as one-sided, but the principle is the same. Despite what you say, it is inevitable that your perception from so far away will be different, though I fully accept that you are totally genuine in what you say about your personal experiences, and what you write about Islam can to an extent transcend all borders. Might it be that as it is so much more difficult to get to Oz and be so far away, that muslims there have a mind-set which makes them more determined to rub along with the host community. I don't know -purely asking.

This current exchange is a very good start to the new relationship! The new deal!

 

[Soulman]

Firstly thanks for summarising your views many people seem to talk past each other on these issues rather than trying to find some common ground or arrive at a better understanding of opposing views.

On the first question I would disagree with your view that this issue is used as a distraction by those in power to divert us from more important problems. If anything the political establishment have studiously ignored and tried to suppress the growing concerns and downplay the issues. Only when their powerbase has been threatened by the electoral success of UKIP have they even acknowledged this is a serious concern. Even now only the Tories pay lip service to reducing the numbers but in reality make no substantive changes. Basically people don't like change especially at the rate it is happening and without any electoral mandate or consultation.

On the second question I think resolving the problem of vetting millions of people (understandably) trying to find a better life is almost insoluble and I would not conveniently categorize them all as 'refugees'. IMHO i think most come for economic reasons (majority are single young men) and are encouraged/cajoled by criminal gangs to head to the promised land. Major wars and sectarian violence have been ongoing for a long time in the middle east yet it is only recently that numbers of refugees/migrants have suddenly increased. There isn't even agreement on quotas at a European level let alone globally so finding any real world practical solution is nigh on impossible. Inability to secure the outer European borders has led to severe security failings leading to the many issues highlighted in these threads.Increased levels of Terrorism ,mass sexual/criminal assaults and severe societal cohesiveness and integration problems are a high price to pay for being seen to do the right thing.

On the third question I can't see how you could view the treatment of women or the Islamic teachings about different sexual persuasions or non believers as well as apostates as compatible with western liberal values. Many major religions once held these views but most have gone through some sort of enforced adaptation /enlightenment. Islam has not and unfortunately still has a vice like grip on most of it's followers. Yes the most dangerous threat come from a minority but when you increase the overall numbers by such vast amounts that minority also increases as does the threat. You are right extremists want to divide communities but ignoring blatant religious intolerance and cultural practises that are alien to our values does the same.

As others have said probably best we agree to disagree!

Good post.

 

[heathgate]

8 Great Modern Innovations We Can Thank Muslims For

1. Algebra

Many Westerners, Germans in particular, are proud of their feats of technology and engineering. But where would engineers be without algebra?

The mathematical system became known in Europe in the twelfth century, when British Arabist Robert of Chester translated the writings of Arab scholar Al-Khwarizmi. Al-Khwarizmi, for whom algorithms are named, is known as the developer of modern algebra.

2. The toothbrush

Islam was the one of the first world religions to place particular emphasis on bodily hygiene. The Qur’an includes instructions for ritual washing. It is no wonder, therefore, that dental hygiene also grew in popularity as Islam did. Admittedly, the ancient Egyptians are thought to have chewed on twigs from the “toothbrush tree.”

However, the twigs, also known as “miswak”, only became known to a wider public when the Prophet Mohammed regularly used them to brush his teeth. While there is no mention of miswak twigs in the Qur’an, they are mentioned many times in writings by Muslim scholars.

3. Marching bands

Military marching bands date back to the Ottoman Mehterhane. These were bands which played during the entire battle and only ceased their music-making when the army retreated or the battle was over.

During the wars with the Ottoman Empire, the bands are thought to have made a considerable impression on European soldiers – after which they adapted the principle for their own use.

4. The guitar

The guitar, as we know it today, has its origins in the Arabic oud – a lute with a bent neck. During the Middle Ages, it found its way to Muslim Spain, where it was referred to as “qitara” in the Arabic of Andalusia.

It is said that a music teacher brought one to the court of the Umayyad ruler Abdel Rahman II in the ninth century. The modern guitar developed as a result of many influences, but the Arabic lute was an important predecessor.

5. Magnifying glass/glasses

Not only did the Arab world revolutionize mathematics – it also revolutionized optics. The scholar Alhazen (Abu al-Hasan) from Basra was the first person to describe how the eye works.

He carried out experiments with reflective materials and proved that the eye does not sense the environment with “sight rays,” as scientists had believed up until then. He also discovered that curved glass surfaces can be used for magnification.

His glass “reading stones” were the first magnifying glasses. It was from these that glasses were later developed. Furthermore, Alhazen wrote important scholarly texts on astronomy and meteorology.

6. Coffee

Coffee is the best known of the Muslim world’s exports. While it originated in Ethiopia, it soon found its way over the Red Sea to the Arabian peninsula, where it grew in popularity.

It is thought that an Ottoman merchant brought the bean-based beverage to London in the 17th century. Venice gained its first coffee house in 1645, while Germany got to know the drink following the retreat of the Turks from Austria in 1683. Legend has it that the Sultan’s soldiers left sackloads of coffee behind.

7. Hospitals

The first modern hospital with nurses and a training centre was in Cairo. In the Ahmed Ibn Tulun hospital (named for the founder of the Tulunid dynasty), which was established in the year 872, all patients received free health care – a Muslim tradition which was institutionalized with the advent of the hospital.

Slightly more basic hospitals had existed prior to this in Baghdad. But it was the Cairo model which would later serve as the template for hospitals all around the globe.

8. Surgical Innovations

The Andalusian-born doctor Albucasis (Abu al-Kasim) was one of the most significant medical figures of the Middle Ages. In the more than 30 volumes he wrote, the tenth-century Arab scholar described how important a positive patient-doctor relationship is, and argued for the same standard of medical care for all, regardless of social class.

He also invented methods for surgically treating diseases of the urethra, the ear and the esophagus, and was the first person to describe an ectopic pregnancy. So great was his influence that he was still being quoted by leading European physicians in the 16th century. His ideas shaped modern surgery.

This piece originally appeared on HuffPost Germany and was translated into English.

CORRECTION: Language has been amended throughout this article to more accurately characterize the contributions of Muslims, which in some cases represent significant improvements to previous technologies rather than the invention of those technologies outright. A previous version identified Arabic numerals as an Islamic invention; they are of Hindu derivation. It also overstated how long Islam has been in existence.

Strange that these achievements seem to ignore all the innovations of the Roman empire 600-1000 years before that. Plus the Greek empire before that, and the Egyptians.

 

[BadFish]

What you have written and the reply by JC are really interesting, and this is you at your best.!! I would hate to think that anyone feels that they are hounded out, and I hope that ALL readers take note. There is, however, a difference between disagreeing with you and hounding you out. Often it is a question of tone, and rather like Nibble, you are quick to come in with one-liners designed to provoke and humiliate (with the occasional insult) and then complain when it is directed at you in return. Yes, there might be more "having a go" and it seems to you as one-sided, but the principle is the same. Despite what you say, it is inevitable that your perception from so far away will be different, though I fully accept that you are totally genuine in what you say about your personal experiences, and what you write about Islam can to an extent transcend all borders. Might it be that as it is so much more difficult to get to Oz and be so far away, that muslims there have a mind-set which makes them more determined to rub along with the host community. I don't know -purely asking.

This current exchange is a very good start to the new relationship! The new deal!

Happy to have a civilised debate with anyone HG. FWIW I don't think you are involved in much of the hounding. Somewhere down the line we fell out but generally you are a decent poster who doesn't abuse people.

A new deal it is.

 

[Soulman]

Another country that is putting its foot down. Seems a few are waking up now.

Tajikistan Moves To Ban Arabic Names, Marriages Between First Cousins
The proposed ban on marriages between first cousins, which is also expected to win approval from the upper house and Rahmon, has prompted heated debate in a country where the practice is fairly common.
Supporters of the ban say that children of parents who are blood relatives run a higher risk of birth defects and genetic illnesses. Opponents say they want more evidence of that link.
The Health Ministry says it has registered more than 25,300 disabled children, 30-35 percent of whom were born to consanguineous marriages.
http://www.rferl.org/content/tajikistan-ban-arabic-names-marriage-between-cousins/27486012.html

 

[alfredmizen]

Another country that is putting its foot down. Seems a few are waking up now.

Tajikistan Moves To Ban Arabic Names, Marriages Between First Cousins
The proposed ban on marriages between first cousins, which is also expected to win approval from the upper house and Rahmon, has prompted heated debate in a country where the practice is fairly common.
Supporters of the ban say that children of parents who are blood relatives run a higher risk of birth defects and genetic illnesses. Opponents say they want more evidence of that link.
The Health Ministry says it has registered more than 25,300 disabled children, 30-35 percent of whom were born to consanguineous marriages.
http://www.rferl.org/content/tajikistan-ban-arabic-names-marriage-between-cousins/27486012.html

The practice is also common amongst Pakistani families in Bradford and has the same consequences genetically, I posted this and got asked for evidence by [MENTION=15579]Albumen[/MENTION] of the genetic defects produced , but he refused to answer when the requested evidence was provided.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The practice is also common amongst Pakistani families in Bradford and has the same consequences genetically, I posted this and got asked for evidence by @Albumen of the genetic defects produced , but he refused to answer when the requested evidence was provided.

Could you imagine our own governments putting forward proposals like this, this country would go in to complete meltdown. If Noel Ed can't talk about the traffic on our roads and say what he feels about his country being full, then I feel really sorry for future generations in this country.

This country has a long way to go.

 

[melias shoes]

Pfft. The fact you think it's acceptable to post links to Nazi websites yet accuse me of troublemaking tells us all we need to know about you. Great work, dude.

And no I shan't comment on the idea that anti immigration mob causes the trouble, it's a ridiculous idea not worthy of my thoughts.

You never answered a single thing. Once again choosing to brand the self righteous racist card. Nasty little man.

 

[Soulman]

Another celebration ruined, and more aggravation at a swimming baths south of Cologne.

"Elsewhere, a carnival parade in Rheinberg, a town north of Cologne, has been cancelled after organisers said they would not be able to provide suitable security arrangements.
The event on 8 February was axed because the parade route would have passed an asylum shelter housing 500 residents, according to German media2.

"A German town has banned male asylum seekers from a public swimming pool after women complained they were being sexually harassed.
Officials in Bornheim, 20 miles south of Cologne, said men at three nearby migrant centres would be barred until they got the message "the right of women in Germany is inviolable".
http://news.sky.com/story/1623889/pool-ban-for-migrants-after-women-harassed

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Another celebration ruined, and more aggravation at a swimming baths south of Cologne.

"Elsewhere, a carnival parade in Rheinberg, a town north of Cologne, has been cancelled after organisers said they would not be able to provide suitable security arrangements.
The event on 8 February was axed because the parade route would have passed an asylum shelter housing 500 residents, according to German media2.

"A German town has banned male asylum seekers from a public swimming pool after women complained they were being sexually harassed.
Officials in Bornheim, 20 miles south of Cologne, said men at three nearby migrant centres would be barred until they got the message "the right of women in Germany is inviolable".
http://news.sky.com/story/1623889/pool-ban-for-migrants-after-women-harassed

Absolute madness isn't it. What a mess Merkel has created here.

 

[Soulman]

Absolute madness isn't it. What a mess Merkel has created here.

Totally agree, what a mess but i always thought that her allowing uncontrolled immigration and the consequences would be a wake up call. Sounds selfish to say that had this not happened then we would also have let/been bullied into doing the same thing, as many on this board and in this country wanted.
On the ITV news last night they showed the refugees in Lebanon, a quarter of a small country now Syrians. Guess what, this is where our aid and help is going to, the source.
I am no fan of the Tories but as you and i stated at the beginning of this mess, Cameron got it spot on sending aid etc to camps NEAR the conflict and fleeing.
Helping those that need it, families, not the vast amount of young migrants many who are fleeing nothing.

 

[crookie]

Totally agree, what a mess but i always thought that her allowing uncontrolled immigration and the consequences would be a wake up call. Sounds selfish to say that had this not happened then we would also have let/been bullied into doing the same thing, as many on this board and in this country wanted.
On the ITV news last night they showed the refugees in Lebanon, a quarter of a small country now Syrians. Guess what, this is where our aid and help is going to, the source.
I am no fan of the Tories but as you and i stated at the beginning of this mess, Cameron got it spot on sending aid etc to camps NEAR the conflict and fleeing.
Helping those that need it, families, not the vast amount of young migrants many who are fleeing nothing.

Exactly right, young men can look after themselves, it is women and children that should be the priority in any immigration. Mainstream media seems to ignore this, reports of sexual abuse and assault against women in Calais camps. If we have to take people let's take women and children, not young men

 

[Deleted member 22389]

And so it continues.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...lised-raped-Afghan-migrant-park-bench-austria

 

[turnstiler]

The problem is women are seen as 2nd class citizens in these countries and to overcome this will take some doing as it appears to still happen even when integrated

I'm a seagull living over here in Cologne and you can't escape the topic. One of my employees is a trainee social worker and was informed by one of her social-worker friends how the female refugees are raped on a daily basis within the 'refugee centres' - and everyone turns a blind eye to it. Take it with a pinch of salt I say, it's only here-say I say. That same day a good friend of mine who chats to fellow dog-walkers in Cologne was himself talking to a, you guessed it, social worker. This lady works with young refugees entering the country (below the age of 18). She said that a great many of them arrive pregnant having been raped on numerous occasions throughout the journey. I can't prove these statements but if true, nothing is being done in Germany to protect the vulnerable in all of this mess. And what did happen in Cologne - and it DID happen - to young mostly German women (could easily have been my wife) is not a coincidence. Imagine New Years Eve, walking along Western Road, passing through Churchill square to head down to the beach for midnight. Ooh it's busy - it's a mass crowd of men but you'll just walk on though, right? Unable to comprehend what's actually happening till afterwards in a state of shock. Incomprehensible, right?

I'm not a fan of all the left and right talk myself - generally I'm a fan of balance rather than extremes and find both extremes intolerable BUT I'm increasingly getting the impression that the kind of German 'majority' who doesn't actually post their beliefs on Facebook or in forums is at a loss who to vote for. These are the policemen, the teachers, the office workers, the guys at Bayer down the road in Leverkusen. They don't feel represented and are increasingly unhappy with Merkel. The problem then is who is there to protect the kind of life they expect to have in Germany - not one where ANY (let alone German) women should have to consider their behaviour around men 'in case they tempt them - knowing it could get out of hand' (ok, roughly translated) - as was advised by the newly-elected mayor.

Of course, I'm probably putting my own belief into this a bit. But I hear the media until very recently constantly telling Germans to 'do the right thing' and accept refugees with open arms but after what happened in Cologne - in front of the Cathedral - a MASSIVE symbol of Christianity and western way of life to the locals - they're not buying it anymore. The 'left' and 'right' are on the street desperately fighting their corners, but the rest are sitting at home, at work, at the pub realising they can have an opinion without being a NAZI too (which is the biggest fear-factor over here as that specific stigma is still strong - and that label is hinted at quite freely when anyone tries to say something against openly accepting everyone - well until now at least).

 

[sydney]

I'm a seagull living over here in Cologne and you can't escape the topic. One of my employees is a trainee social worker and was informed by one of her social-worker friends how the female refugees are raped on a daily basis within the 'refugee centres' - and everyone turns a blind eye to it. Take it with a pinch of salt I say, it's only here-say I say. That same day a good friend of mine who chats to fellow dog-walkers in Cologne was himself talking to a, you guessed it, social worker. This lady works with young refugees entering the country (below the age of 18). She said that a great many of them arrive pregnant having been raped on numerous occasions throughout the journey. I can't prove these statements but if true, nothing is being done in Germany to protect the vulnerable in all of this mess. And what did happen in Cologne - and it DID happen - to young mostly German women (could easily have been my wife) is not a coincidence. Imagine New Years Eve, walking along Western Road, passing through Churchill square to head down to the beach for midnight. Ooh it's busy - it's a mass crowd of men but you'll just walk on though, right? Unable to comprehend what's actually happening till afterwards in a state of shock. Incomprehensible, right?

I'm not a fan of all the left and right talk myself - generally I'm a fan of balance rather than extremes and find both extremes intolerable BUT I'm increasingly getting the impression that the kind of German 'majority' who doesn't actually post their beliefs on Facebook or in forums is at a loss who to vote for. These are the policemen, the teachers, the office workers, the guys at Bayer down the road in Leverkusen. They don't feel represented and are increasingly unhappy with Merkel. The problem then is who is there to protect the kind of life they expect to have in Germany - not one where ANY (let alone German) women should have to consider their behaviour around men 'in case they tempt them - knowing it could get out of hand' (ok, roughly translated) - as was advised by the newly-elected mayor.

Of course, I'm probably putting my own belief into this a bit. But I hear the media until very recently constantly telling Germans to 'do the right thing' and accept refugees with open arms but after what happened in Cologne - in front of the Cathedral - a MASSIVE symbol of Christianity and western way of life to the locals - they're not buying it anymore. The 'left' and 'right' are on the street desperately fighting their corners, but the rest are sitting at home, at work, at the pub realising they can have an opinion without being a NAZI too (which is the biggest fear-factor over here as that specific stigma is still strong - and that label is hinted at quite freely when anyone tries to say something against openly accepting everyone - well until now at least).

great post.....by far the best on this thread so far , my advice to those Germans who are reluctant to take sides for fear of feeding nazism would be , i don't think you can be knocked for protecting what is yours.......for me the only way to stop this increasing problem is to return these "refugees" immediately to where they came from...... <mod edit> There are limits to what is acceptable on NSC, even if it is posted on the other stuff. Behave, please...