[Politics] Would YOU be happy to pay more income tax so OAPs could keep their fuel payments?

[Bodian]

Fair enough. All I know is I have to complete a self-assessment and it’s nigh on impossible to get any money back without a lengthy battle!

Mrs Bodian received a £1.25 refund quite recently. And she didn't even know she was entitled to it.

 

[Peteinblack]

Read the first page but not the others so apologies.

No, I wouldn't want to pay more tax just for WFP for 'all' pensioners. Like all benefits (apart from the basic pension itself) I believe they should be means tested.

With regard to the WFP, I agree in principle with what Labour have done except for where they have fixed the cut off point which I think is too low and excludes too many that actually do need the payment. That said, the 800,000 that are entitled to but don't claim pension credits need to apply. As Martin Lewis pointed out on tv the other day, getting pension credits opens the door to a host of other benefits and his view was along the lines that even if pension credit only gets you a couple of extra quid a week, it's worth it for the other benefits that come along.

Agree, but there is a paradox - the more pensioners who apply for/receive Pension Credits (and related or 'passported' benefits), the more it wipes out the savings Reeves intended to make from reducing WFA!

 

[Littlemo]

I never really like these questions because it always makes the assumption that in raising tax, the extra money gathered actually does go to the purpose of paying for these things.

I don’t, in theory, mind raising tax’s for meeting various societal needs however in the past government, a very large amount of our taxes were essentially embezzled away to various friends of Tories in the form of dodgy contracts etc. PPE scandal for example, but there is plenty more.

When my money is going to the already wealthy friends of the government and not into the public services or goods such as a winter fuel payment, then I mind my taxes being raised very much. If Labour are more honest and collect the extra taxes and use it to help pensioners, then I don’t mind at all.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

In addition there’s no database lumping your UK household income in with Mrs.HT.

Don't be so sure ...

It would not be too difficult to combine the Electorol Roll register, where household cohabitation data is held with the HMRC CESA and DCDM systems. OSA won't allow me to elaborate but HMRC definitely have the data to be able to generate a household income figure using PAYE and SA data and DCDM would get pretty close to getting an individual's asset wealth worth.

I'm personally not aware that such a system already exists (above my security clearance) but to say "no database" exists may not be entirely correct.

I was often taken aback by the level of data capture / data matching that HMRC do to be aware of our individual financial circumstances.

 

[Baldseagull]

I would be happy for my taxes to increase, but not to give it to those that don't need it.
Wknter fuel allowance should remain for those on pension credits, be available at maybe a lower rate for every other pensioner not in highest tax band, if they apply for it, not means tested, but not just dished out to everyone either.

 

[Bodian]

Agree, but there is a paradox - the more pensioners who apply for/receive Pension Credits (and related or 'passported' benefits), the more it wipes out the savings Reeves intended to make from reducing WFA!

May wipe out the savings, but should end up with the monies previously going to those who didn't need it all going to those that do.

 

[GT49er]

Perhaps a compromise, to save money and to appease some of the backlash, would be to limit the universal (as opposed to those on pension credit) to an older age group - the older people get, the more heating they generally need, so perhaps make it universal for, say, the over 85s?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This was my experience also. 15+ years doing self assessment with almost every one resulting in a refund due, always got paid within 3 weeks of submitting SA

Maybe @Herr Tubthumper had more complex or contentious tax circumstances, but 18 months sounds unusual.

It wasn’t anything complex or contentious. My self assessment was incorrect to the tune of £745. My accountant re-submitted my self-assessment and we waited. I called after a while, they claimed they hadn’t received it, my accountant had a code or something he stated as evidence of the re-submission, they said they’d look for it, I kept calling, I kept explaining to a different person every time and kept being told they’d investigate and I’d get a call-back etc etc. Eventually we were asked to re-submit again and after another few months I got the money back plus 50 extra for the inconvenience. Whole thing took 18 months.

 

[Mustafa II]

Wealthy pensioners should obviously not receive any kind of welfare support like this.

The poorest and most vulnerable - yes, they may need such support to survive.

In the same vain, more needs to be done to redistribute the wealth from the wealthy pensioners, in the form of higher taxes or further removal of any other benefits they may receive.

 

[Official Old Man]

I'm 68 but in all honesty don't need the WFA. I still pay tax and I'm very miffed that I pay tax on my pension.
But on the other hand, my Mum is 90 and could really do with the WFA. But she gets pension credit and so gets the extra as well.
If you think it's bad now, wait until the Autumn Budget.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Of course pensioners receive an equal or above inflation pay rise every single year with the "triple lock", but somehow there is always money for that, and nobody ever questions it. Yet when it's people doing critical jobs suppling crucial public services, for some reason there's no money and people get all indignant that they have the temerity to ask.

As I understand it, this year's rise is circa £460, so actually more than the winter fuel allowance that they have lost.

Not all pensioners will receive £460 as I understand it .....doesn't that only apply on the state pension as of 2016....

...then your point as to the £460 ...so net £160....... so increase in energy bills....potentially rent ...council tax etc...hmmm

 

[Bodian]

Not all pensioners will receive £460 as I understand it .....doesn't that only apply on the state pension as of 2016....

...then your point as to the £460 ...so net £160....... so increase in energy bills....potentially rent ...council tax etc...hmmm

Although the WFP is not £300 for most. Only >80s (3 million) got £300, under 80s (8 million) got £200.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The 'tax man' is HM Revenue and Customs. Pension credit and Universal credit is the domain of the DWP. Do they co-operate? I'll leave it to you to guess the answer!
(In my years with the DWP in the 80s and 90s, I can vouch for the fact the the Inland Revenue refused to co-operate even on a basic level)

It’s crap they don’t cooperate. Whilst I agree with the principle of means testing, it’s also crap that in 2024 there isn’t a relatively simple way to administer it.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Thank you. It’s still early, and that’s my excuse. 🫢

early? that's the middle of the night you are writing that

 

[fly high]

Would it really cost as much as 2% for all of us, on all bands? I'm amazed that's how much the WFP cost.




The issue is that a lot of pensioners don't need it and can easily afford to go without it, whereas there are many more people who are scraping by, who can't afford 2% on the basic rate of tax.

According to HMRC in a report published in June this year, a 1% change in base rate would raise £6.2b in 25/26, add another 1% to upper band would raise £1.35b so actually raising the higher rate would be enough especially if you added the WFP to higher rate payers income & taxed it at 40%.

 

[Wardy's twin]

OP’s question does state ‘every band’ tbf but this is a large part of the WF allowance problem - the admin costs of means-testing if you start to put layers onto what has been blunt instrument.…….maybe there’s a simple (ish) way to pay it to, say, pensioners that don’t pay tax for example Vast majority of my mates/family that are of state pension age have no need for the allowance and shouldn’t get it.

it always astonishes me how badly integrated government computer systems are, wouldn't (shouldn't) take a lot to extract tax paid amount and then apply it to the system which pays the winter fuel.

 

[dazzer6666]

According to HMRC in a report published in June this year, a 1% change in base rate would raise £6.2b in 25/26, add another 1% to upper band would raise £1.35b so actually raising the higher rate would be enough especially if you added the WFP to higher rate payers income & taxed it at 40%.

Think @GB was perhaps suggesting the 2% to plug the 22bn black hole not just cover the WFA

 

[Wardy's twin]

Don't be so sure ...

It would not be too difficult to combine the Electorol Roll register, where household cohabitation data is held with the HMRC CESA and DCDM systems. OSA won't allow me to elaborate but HMRC definitely have the data to be able to generate a household income figure using PAYE and SA data and DCDM would get pretty close to getting an individual's asset wealth worth.

I'm personally not aware that such a system already exists (above my security clearance) but to say "no database" exists may not be entirely correct.

I was often taken aback by the level of data capture / data matching that HMRC do to be aware of our individual financial circumstances.

Pretty sure it was child allowance where if you as single earner in family earnt £50.1 k your family didn't get it but if both of you worked and earnt £49.9k each you got it.

 

[dazzer6666]

Don't be so sure ...

It would not be too difficult to combine the Electorol Roll register, where household cohabitation data is held with the HMRC CESA and DCDM systems. OSA won't allow me to elaborate but HMRC definitely have the data to be able to generate a household income figure using PAYE and SA data and DCDM would get pretty close to getting an individual's asset wealth worth.

I'm personally not aware that such a system already exists (above my security clearance) but to say "no database" exists may not be entirely correct.

I was often taken aback by the level of data capture / data matching that HMRC do to be aware of our individual financial circumstances.

Banks and FIs produce automated interest reports for HMRC too…….

 

[timbha]

Banks and FIs produce automated interest reports for HMRC too…….

….and authomatically change your tax code to collect any tax due on the interest it seems. Presume they allocate 50% on joint accounts??